| Author | Topic: Does hitting percentage make sense? (Read 1,196 times) |
p-dub Volleyball 'Champion'
     member is offline
![[avatar]](http://www.chem.purdue.edu/wenthold/misc/closeup.jpg)
Bad spellers of the world - untie
Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female  Posts: 8,341
|  | Does hitting percentage make sense? « Thread Started on Sept 26, 2009, 9:08am » | |
Hitting percentage is (kills - errors)/total attacks
Does it make sense to subtract the errors? I know you want it seems reasonable to penalize errors, but is that correct?
Actually, the answer is, yeah, that probably pretty close. It might be a little off, but it's probably not too bad. Here's why:
What is implication of hitting pct? Let's consider two hitting lines:
Player A: 6/3/15 Player B: 3/0/15
Both players have hit .200, but the first has done it with more kills and more errors. Which of these contributions is better?
Actually, it depends on what happens in those balls that aren't kills or errors. For example, what happened in those 6 attacks that were dug for player A? If they were all turned into kills for the other team, than that means player A attacks only led to 6 points for the team. Then again, if all of player B's attacks resulted in kills for the other team, than that player's attacks only led to 3 points for the team. Therefore, in that type of scenerio (where a non-terminated attack always leads to a point for the opposition), then 6/3/15 is much better than 3/0/15.
Then again, it's not likely that a dug attack always leads to a point for the other team. We know that the scoring success on serve receive, for example, is only about 70%, and I wouldn't expect the average dug ball to be easier than serve reception. But let's assume that's basically what it is. Assume that non-terminated kills are converted 2/3 of the time. Then which line is better?
For player A, that means that 4 of the 6 non-terminated balls are points for the other team. That means that player A created 8 points for the team, and the opponents had 7.
For player B, 8 of the 12 non-terminated balls were points for the opponents, so player B created 7 points, and the opponents had 8. Again, player A, the one with more kills and more errors, contributed more to winning.
Now, hitting pct suggests that their contributions were the same. What does this imply? In the same sense as above, it means that the opposition converts 50% of the attacks that are not terminated. So half of the 6 for player A are points for the opposition, and half of the 12 for player B are points for the opposition. Thus, both players lead to 9 points.
The question is, what is the real percentage of conversion on non-terminated attacks? As I said above, we shouldn't expect it to be more than say, 70%, the sideout percentage. Moreover, I think it is a fair assessment to think that it should be lower than that. Attacks that get dug might not be terminated, but they can also put the other team off-balance. This could in principle be offset by some easier shots, but then again, free balls are generally not (supposed to be) considered as attacks. I think it is fair to argue that (on average - individuals' milage may vary) the typical non-scoring attack is harder to convert than a serve. On the whole, some may be easier for the opponent, some may be harder, so an estimate of 50%, while probably not exactly right, is also probably not too far from realistic. As such, it would mean that, yes indeed, player A and player B contribute the same, as hitting % says they do.
Now, that is referring to overall pcts, and there will be individuals whose pcts will vary. If, for example, a player's non-terminated attacks are being converted at more than 50% by the opponents, it means they should probably get more aggressive. Similarly, if non-terminated attacks are converted at less than 50%, the player can get more conservative.
(if anyone has the real numbers for conversion, that would be usefull and would affect the analysis)
| |
|
BearClause Hall of Fame
      member is offline
![[avatar]](http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7028/iaoneedle.jpg)
A cloudy day in Īao Valley
Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Male  Posts: 10,684 Location: Kensington, California
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #1 on Sept 26, 2009, 9:27am » | |
First of all - I hate the term"percentage" as applied to a number like .324. That's an average. A percentage would be 32.4%.
I've seen a few places list a kill **ahem** efficiency. Often MaxPreps sheets on players list the average of kills per attack.
|
![[image]](http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3595/img1660hp6.jpg)
The buck stops here. |
|
mikegarrison Professional
     member is offline
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male  Posts: 4,520 Location: Covington, WA
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #2 on Sept 26, 2009, 9:29am » | |
What if the other team is terrible, and makes an attack error every time they touch the ball. Then your best strategy would be to just get the ball over in play. Player B would be more effective.
But what if the other team perfectly converts every ball they can play? Then player A is more effective.
But the stat's usefulness should ideally not depend on the capability of the other team. And hitting percentage does. So therefore, it is non-ideal.
I guess the question is whether or not a more ideal replacement can be suggested.
| |
|
bucky415 Badger Buddy
     member is offline
Joined: Aug 2003 Gender: Male  Posts: 3,459
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #3 on Sept 26, 2009, 9:31am » | |
I get what you are saying. If the digs are of the "protect my face" type and just lead to free balls, it isn't the same as those that are dug and passed right to the setter for a quick transition play. When Dolgner was healthy, I noticed that a lot with her. Even when she got dug, it wasn't leading to much.
| |
|
p-dub Volleyball 'Champion'
     member is offline
![[avatar]](http://www.chem.purdue.edu/wenthold/misc/closeup.jpg)
Bad spellers of the world - untie
Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female  Posts: 8,341
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #4 on Sept 26, 2009, 9:37am » | |
Mike - EVERY stat in a competitive setting relies on the quality of the opposition.
the important thing is to recognize what it is saying: hitting pct (screw you, BC) implies that the opponents convert at 50% on non-terminal attacks.
I contend that, on average, that's not a bad assumption. As I said about 5 times, there can be individual variation, but it overall it's pretty reasonable.
| |
|
mikegarrison Professional
     member is offline
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male  Posts: 4,520 Location: Covington, WA
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #5 on Sept 26, 2009, 9:49am » | |
Sept 26, 2009, 9:37am, p-dub wrote:| Mike - EVERY stat in a competitive setting relies on the quality of the opposition. |
|
Some are more ideal than others. What I was asking is whether people can suggest one that is more ideal -- one that better measures the hitter's skill without assuming that all opponents the hitter plays against are average.
Obviously, hitting percentage depends on the ability of the passers, the setters, the opposing blockers, the opposing diggers, etc. So is there something that we can think of which removes (or at least reduces the effects of) those other variables?
The important thing with any metric is to first understand what question you are seeking to answer. Hitting percentage may be a good answer to the question, "Which hitters were most effective for the team tonight?" But I suggest it is not a good answer to the question, "Is hitter A for team X better than hitter B for team Y?"
| |
|
p-dub Volleyball 'Champion'
     member is offline
![[avatar]](http://www.chem.purdue.edu/wenthold/misc/closeup.jpg)
Bad spellers of the world - untie
Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female  Posts: 8,341
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #6 on Sept 26, 2009, 9:53am » | |
Sept 26, 2009, 9:31am, bucky415 wrote:| I get what you are saying. If the digs are of the "protect my face" type and just lead to free balls, it isn't the same as those that are dug and passed right to the setter for a quick transition play. When Dolgner was healthy, I noticed that a lot with her. Even when she got dug, it wasn't leading to much. |
|
Presumably, coaches will be tracking such things, and can use it to adjustr strategy accordingly.
| |
|
BearClause Hall of Fame
      member is offline
![[avatar]](http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7028/iaoneedle.jpg)
A cloudy day in Īao Valley
Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Male  Posts: 10,684 Location: Kensington, California
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #7 on Sept 26, 2009, 9:56am » | |
Sept 26, 2009, 9:49am, mikegarrison wrote:| [The important thing with any metric is to first understand what question you are seeking to answer. Hitting percentage may be a good answer to the question, "Which hitters were most effective for the team tonight?" But I suggest it is not a good answer to the question, "Is hitter A for team X better than hitter B for team Y?" |
|
Of course. Nothing happens in a vacuum. I've seen players with ridiculously low hitting numbers for an entire match. They were obviously important enough to the opposition to design the defense to stop them and pay less attention to the teammates who were left with one on one/none hitting situations who torched them for maybe .400-.500 hitting.
|
![[image]](http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3595/img1660hp6.jpg)
The buck stops here. |
|
p-dub Volleyball 'Champion'
     member is offline
![[avatar]](http://www.chem.purdue.edu/wenthold/misc/closeup.jpg)
Bad spellers of the world - untie
Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Female  Posts: 8,341
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #8 on Sept 26, 2009, 9:57am » | |
Sept 26, 2009, 9:49am, mikegarrison wrote: Sept 26, 2009, 9:37am, p-dub wrote:| Mike - EVERY stat in a competitive setting relies on the quality of the opposition. |
|
Some are more ideal than others. What I was asking is whether people can suggest one that is more ideal -- one that better measures the hitter's skill without assuming that all opponents the hitter plays against are average.
Obviously, hitting percentage depends on the ability of the passers, the setters, the opposing blockers, the opposing diggers, etc. So is there something that we can think of which removes (or at least reduces the effects of) those other variables?
The important thing with any metric is to first understand what question you are seeking to answer. Hitting percentage may be a good answer to the question, "Which hitters were most effective for the team tonight?" But I suggest it is not a good answer to the question, "Is hitter A for team X better than hitter B for team Y?" |
|
In a given game, probably not. However, over the course of a season, it's not as bad.
then again, note my analysis is not just in terms of who hit higher, but actually, given two people who hit the same, who did more?
The important insight here, though, is that the hitting% formula makes an implicit assumption that non-terminated attacks are converted at 50%. So the way to make it better is to modify it in a way that better reflects the actual % of non-terminated attacks, assuming it is not 50, or individualizing it more.
| |
|
mikegarrison Professional
     member is offline
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male  Posts: 4,520 Location: Covington, WA
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #9 on Sept 26, 2009, 10:10am » | |
Sept 26, 2009, 9:56am, BearClause wrote: That is very much not an "of course" observation. In fact, it is probably the most misunderstood concept of measuring things. Many, many times people think of a measurement and then try to figure out what it explains. It is far better to ask a question and then see if you can find a measurement that answers it.
| |
|
Wolfgang Hall of Fame
      member is offline
![[avatar]](http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7216/face21jcc1.jpg)
Joined: Sept 2005 Gender: Male  Posts: 11,245 Location: A Happier Place
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #10 on Sept 26, 2009, 10:14am » | |
My pet peeve is the following phrase:
"1 for 4..."
If the implication of such stats is that a player hit 1 ball out of every 4 attempts, it should be:
"1 of 4..."
What the heck is "for"? It makes sense if you meant to say he hit 1 ball for 4 points or scored 1 basket for 2 points, but to say he made 1 basket for 4 attempts is....grrrrrrrr...drives me insane! And everyone in America says it (incorrectly) this way.
Also, as Bearclause pointed out, a percentage is NOT 0.324, but 32.4%. I've always believed this. Makes me angry.
| No, you don't have permission. |
|
BearClause Hall of Fame
      member is offline
![[avatar]](http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7028/iaoneedle.jpg)
A cloudy day in Īao Valley
Joined: Oct 2002 Gender: Male  Posts: 10,684 Location: Kensington, California
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #11 on Sept 26, 2009, 10:17am » | |
Sept 26, 2009, 10:10am, mikegarrison wrote: Sept 26, 2009, 9:56am, BearClause wrote: That is very much not an "of course" observation. In fact, it is probably the most misunderstood concept of measuring things. Many, many times people think of a measurement and then try to figure out what it explains. It is far better to ask a question and then see if you can find a measurement that answers it. |
|
There are probably no better sports statistics for actual evaluation of talent than in baseball. It's the rigidity of where the pitcher is, where the hitter is stationed, and generally where the fielders are.
For the most part I don't think many coaches look that much at hitting numbers when they're scouting future opponents. Most coaches I know would rather have game video.
|
![[image]](http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3595/img1660hp6.jpg)
The buck stops here. |
|
NobodySpecial Volleyball 'Champion'
     member is offline
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 877
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #12 on Sept 26, 2009, 10:18am » | |
One minor flaw to your calculation of whether hitting/attack efficiency or kill percentage is better is that one player could have one or more zero attack that are dug and a kill on the same rally. It would almost be like counting it twice as the zero attack(s) still helped lead to a point on the rally, but already counted by the kill.
| |
|
eddie Junior High
 member is offline
Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 1
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #13 on Sept 26, 2009, 10:26am » | |
I don't think of it as a percentage. It's actually the average number of points scored per attack. 6 kills and 3 errors means you scored a net 3 points for your team. In 15 attempts, the average is 0.200 points per attack.
| |
|
mikegarrison Professional
     member is offline
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male  Posts: 4,520 Location: Covington, WA
|  | Re: Does hitting percentage make sense? « Reply #14 on Sept 26, 2009, 10:34am » | |
Sept 26, 2009, 10:26am, eddie wrote:| I don't think of it as a percentage. It's actually the average number of points scored per attack. 6 kills and 3 errors means you scored a net 3 points for your team. In 15 attempts, the average is 0.200 points per attack. |
|
The point is that those errors may or may not have been worse than sending the ball over with a safe but creampuff attack. However, they hurt your average much more than the safe, non-effective but non-error attacks do.
| |
| |
|