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Post by beachman on Aug 23, 2008 20:46:46 GMT -5
A further development in the story of the Chinese female gymnasts came out today when a former member of their Olympic Team of 2000 admitted that she was only 14 when she competed and that the Chinese Olympic folks falsified her birth records.....do they cheat? Does a bear %*$# in the woods?
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Post by ucsdfan on Aug 25, 2008 16:26:45 GMT -5
I suspect the USA men gymnasts are girls. I know Tim Dagget is. No worries they'll ever test out at Floyd Landis levels in terms of testosterone.
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Post by ucsdfan on Aug 25, 2008 16:40:15 GMT -5
Also note that there are a number of countries out there who have "under-age" gymnasts (including the USA) who could have helped their teams. Those girls were not allowed to compete. Cheating is cheating. So who exactly are these under-16 US gymnasts that would have made us a gold medal contender? Bart Connor in his moment in front of a mic made it clear that we weren't getting screwed because there weren't any US youngsters that got omitted from the team because of age. Thank God the US teams didn't whine like us fans; that would have been embarrassing. And Ruffda made the ultimate point in the matter. If your sport is better off with someone 14 instead of 16, then it's probably not a good sport. Think of all the volleyball they could have shown if they got rid of gymnastics. And lastly, I think some of the horses were under 16 (not sure how to convert to horse years though), so maybe we can eliminate the equestrian events.
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Post by Wolfgang on Aug 25, 2008 16:49:38 GMT -5
Did you notice the Olympic powers-that-be keep adding more and more sports that require subjective judging and removing more and more sports that require objective scoring? For example: they added trampoline and synchronized diving and removed softball and baseball. I haven't done a thorough statistical analysis on this but this represents my general "feeling."
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Post by Wolfgang on Aug 25, 2008 16:52:26 GMT -5
And Ruffda made the ultimate point in the matter. If your sport is better off with someone 14 instead of 16, then it's probably not a good sport. Think of all the volleyball they could have shown if they got rid of gymnastics. I don't buy Ruffda's argument, that cheapskate. For example, Xbox and Sony PS2/3 tournaments. 14-year old kids are clearly better than 40-somethings and yet, do we dare to conclude there's something wrong with these sports?
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Post by ucsdfan on Aug 25, 2008 16:59:39 GMT -5
I don't buy Ruffda's argument, that cheapskate. For example, Xbox and Sony PS2/3 tournaments. 14-year old dids are clearly better than 40-somethings and yet, do we dare to conclude there's something wrong with these sports? Great point that I have no response for. And given that my 9-year old eventually beats me at Wii anything after I have to DNF myself for whatever ailment kicks in, yet I still love the Wii, just further supports your insightful point.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2008 17:33:27 GMT -5
Can you check out a Wii at the local library?
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Post by OverAndUnder on Aug 25, 2008 17:47:33 GMT -5
Did you notice the Olympic powers-that-be keep adding more and more sports that require subjective judging and removing more and more sports that require objective scoring? For example: they added trampoline and synchronized diving and removed softball and baseball. I haven't done a thorough statistical analysis on this but this represents my general "feeling." Your "feeling" may reflect a very real phenomenon. Every television producer's dream is to control outcomes for maximum ratings. The IOC exists to sell ad revenue. Therefore, they necessarily must be concerned with the marketability of their product. Seems like a reasonable suspicion to me.
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Post by BearClause on Aug 25, 2008 18:18:47 GMT -5
Did you notice the Olympic powers-that-be keep adding more and more sports that require subjective judging and removing more and more sports that require objective scoring? For example: they added trampoline and synchronized diving and removed softball and baseball. I haven't done a thorough statistical analysis on this but this represents my general "feeling." Your "feeling" may reflect a very real phenomenon. Every television producer's dream is to control outcomes for maximum ratings. The IOC exists to sell ad revenue. Therefore, they necessarily must be concerned with the marketability of their product. Seems like a reasonable suspicion to me. I remember reading some column (blatantly biased) noting that the majority of China's gold medal haul was from judged sports like gymnastics, boxing, and diving. We all have suspicions that athletes from the host country get a boost. It happens all the time and I suspect the US got it when the Olympics were in Atlanta and LA. It's not to say that the judging was blatantly biased, but that there might have been a subconscious boost. I remember watching one of the boxing matches, and how commentator Teddy Atlas was noting clear blows landed by an Irish boxer that weren't being registered by the judges (using that strange 3 of five judges pressing buttons within one second system) against a Chinese fighter. This system was instituted after Roy Jones Jr clearly outclassed his South Korean opponent during the Seoul Olympics, but lost in a 3-2 decision.
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Post by Mocha on Aug 25, 2008 19:30:25 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for the Olympics to add men's synchronized swimming. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Wolfgang on Aug 25, 2008 19:32:37 GMT -5
Well...okay...but I draw the line at mascara on men.
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Post by ucsdfan on Aug 25, 2008 19:36:43 GMT -5
I remember reading some column (blatantly biased) noting that the majority of China's gold medal haul was from judged sports like gymnastics, boxing, and diving. We all have suspicions that athletes from the host country get a boost. It happens all the time and I suspect the US got it when the Olympics were in Atlanta and LA. It's not to say that the judging was blatantly biased, but that there might have been a subconscious boost. I think it might have been the Yahoo Fourth medal column you were reading, because they were pretty up in arms about the whole thing. But as has been pointed out, the fact is that home court advantage is part of the process. You can bet that diving judges, gymnastics judges, boxing judges, equestrian judges, tae kwan do judges, etc.. all got some pretty nice accommodations during their stay in Beijing. It's a catch-22 as a host country. You need to treat them with reverence, but that leads to crossing a fine line in terms of appearing to bribe them. Maybe it's not as bad as the French ice skating judge (great reference earlier by whoever listed the name) or New Jersey boxing judges, but there will always be a bias to favor the people housing you and feeding you. China put on an amazing show and a great games, so they earned their extra point here and there. The bronze medal on woman's vault was no doubt a "thank you for the exquisite meals." The silver medal in men's rings was like a "thank you for the single room with 300-thread sheets." It comes with the territory and for us to b#@$ and moan about it is hypocritical to say the least. What makes me most proud is that in the fourteen team sports (baseball/softball, waterpolo, handball, soccer, basketball, field hockey, and VOLLEYBALL) our country took 4 golds, 4 silvers, and 1 bronze. Brazil with 1 gold, 2 silvers, and 1 bronze and then Netherlands with 2 golds are the only countries to come close. We are a team oriented culture and with the exception of the 4x100 relay teams and any event that you'd normally pay $50 to see in Vegas (syncro swimming, rhythmic gymnastics, etc...), we did well on events where three or more people worked together. So rather than whine about bias in judged events, I'm happy with how we did in the team events. And as an American, it's pretty hyprocritical for me to complain about China given that Paul Hamm (2004) and Marian Jones (2000) benefited greatly from some questionable actions. I just want to appreciate the incredible moments some of the athletes gave me and the fact that I got to feel overly-patriotic for sixteen days. The Olympics are great! I remember watching one of the boxing matches, and how commentator Teddy Atlas was noting clear blows landed by an Irish boxer that weren't being registered by the judges (using that strange 3 of five judges pressing buttons within one second system) against a Chinese fighter. This system was instituted after Roy Jones Jr clearly outclassed his South Korean opponent during the Seoul Olympics, but lost in a 3-2 decision. Boxing is crooked at all levels, so this shouldn't be news. The sad thing is that there were quite a few questionable decisions and judging choices that sent superior boxers home without a medal. But rather than indict the system, I have to wonder if the Spinks brothers earned their gold. Did Holyfield deserve his? Was De la Hoya the best when he won? Roy Jones clearly got ripped off and that lead to some changes being implemented. But it still remains that when an outcome is decided by five observers, their is going to be politics influencing what they see. In all honesty, if I were a judge, I would be biased. Countries of my heritage would no doubt get the benefit of the doubt, as much as I'd try to be honorable. I would push for the host because they have thousands of eyes watching right there next to me. Unless you're a Cuban Tae Kwan Do competitor, I think you just have to accept that the system is far from perfect and getting a fair judgement is about as likely as getting an unfair one.
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Post by itsallrelative on Aug 25, 2008 19:39:33 GMT -5
Well...okay...but I draw the line at mascara on men. oh, come on, wolfie, we all know you're emo at heart....
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Post by Wolfgang on Aug 25, 2008 19:42:41 GMT -5
What's "emo"?
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Post by BearClause on Aug 25, 2008 19:53:54 GMT -5
China put on an amazing show and a great games, so they earned their extra point here and there. The bronze medal on woman's vault was no doubt a "thank you for the exquisite meals." The silver medal in men's rings was like a "thank you for the single room with 300-thread sheets." It comes with the territory and for us to b#@$ and moan about it is hypocritical to say the least. Didn't that vault medal come from a girl who landed on her knees twice? I don't recall the exact details as I was on vacation and had sporadic moments where I could watch TV or check out the internet. The whole "exquisite meals" thing was supposed to have been dealt with years ago. I recall that three of the judges in the Roy Jones Jr. vs Park Si-Hun fight were admittedly wined and dined by the Korean boxing federation the night before the fight, but that claims of a more direct bribe of cash or valuables was never proven. I know of a ref who told me he was offered a spot as a VB line judge at various Olympic games. Apparently they don't pay for travel, and possibly no lodging either. It could be different depending on the sport and or venue.
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