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Post by ims2pidladat on Jan 30, 2007 1:40:28 GMT -5
I was thinking why there are only four teams in the final four of the NCAA men's volleyball tournament. Can they at least expand it to maybe 8? Four seems too little. There are many good teams in the MPSF and they should be given more slots in the tournament. Two is to little.
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Post by Mac on Jan 30, 2007 2:05:51 GMT -5
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Post by kepakai on Jan 31, 2007 1:19:04 GMT -5
The NCAA voted down expansion to 8 teams in 06 and the issue will not be revisited until 08, which is the budget cycle. of the 31 requests last year for funds, only 5 sports were granted more money.
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Post by Mac on Jan 31, 2007 4:17:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the update. I hadn't seen anything on it recently. Might you have any article links? Not a big deal if you don't.
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Jan 31, 2007 13:03:38 GMT -5
By my count, there are about 325 NCAA DI women volleyball teams. 64 of them make the tournament, which is 19.7% of them.
There are 22 DI men's teams. 19.7% of them is 4.33.
4 seems about right to me.
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Post by Semp12 on Jan 31, 2007 13:52:07 GMT -5
But, since there is no official D3 tournament right now, which means all D1, D2, and D3 teams are competing for the same NCAA tournament bids, that number should be raised. The Moltens are an unofficial tournament so that doesn't exactly count.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2007 14:36:22 GMT -5
I was reading on Wikipedia about the men's championship a while back and it said that only EIVA D-3 teams can earn an "at-large" bid for the tournament. Is this true? Say Carthage or Clarke one year miraculously goes undefeated with a good number of quality wins, and loses in the MIVA final, is there a reason why they can't be considered for the "at-large". Quote: Division 3 also has a Men's Volleyball Championship of their own. It is currently named the "Molten Division III Men's Invitational Volleyball Championship" that is exclusive to Division 3 Men's Volleyball programs. Though it has never occurred, a Division 3 school in the EIVA conference may qualify for the "NCAA National Collegiate Men's Volleyball Championship". Link: en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NCAA_Men%27s_Volleyball_Championship&diff=103544542&oldid=93216704 |
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Post by banthony2 on Jan 31, 2007 14:46:33 GMT -5
Well the D3 teams in the EIVA can earn an AUTOMATIC berth in the Final Four if they win the EIVA tournament. I think that is what the article is meaning when it says that. I would hope that if a team with let;s say La Verne's schedule (when it still had a program) might be up for consideration if it went undefeated.
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Jan 31, 2007 18:21:15 GMT -5
Given what you folks have all said, I think the real case that should be made is that there needs to be separate DII and DIII tournaments.
Look at the Pablo rankings above, and it's very clear that DI and DII are in "different leagues." Yeah, there are a couple of DII teams in the top 15, but none in the top half, and the bottom is just as strongly DII as DI is at the top. Let them all play whoever through the season, but when it comes to tournament time, let the top DII fight it out amongst themselves.
Simply expanding the tournament to 8 would be a disservice to the DII teams, because all it would do would be to allow more DI teams into the tournament (unless they guarantee DII spots, like the do with conferences in women's DI, but then those teams just end up being in way over their heads). If they expand to 8 and want to bring the best teams, it will just be 8 DI teams.
So, in summary, I am all in support of expanding the number of teams in the tournament, but doing it by creating a DII tourney. If they have a DII tournament of 4 teams, then the fraction of DI and DII men's teams is basically the same as that on the women's side. THAT is the proposal that volleyball should be bringing to the NCAA.
Oh, and there should be a DIII tournament, too.
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Post by cyberVBmidwest on Jan 31, 2007 19:09:54 GMT -5
Given what you folks have all said, I think the real case that should be made is that there needs to be separate DII and DIII tournaments. Look at the Pablo rankings above, and it's very clear that DI and DII are in "different leagues." Yeah, there are a couple of DII teams in the top 15, but none in the top half, and the bottom is just as strongly DII as DI is at the top. Let them all play whoever through the season, but when it comes to tournament time, let the top DII fight it out amongst themselves. Simply expanding the tournament to 8 would be a disservice to the DII teams, because all it would do would be to allow more DI teams into the tournament (unless they guarantee DII spots, like the do with conferences in women's DI, but then those teams just end up being in way over their heads). If they expand to 8 and want to bring the best teams, it will just be 8 DI teams. So, in summary, I am all in support of expanding the number of teams in the tournament, but doing it by creating a DII tourney. If they have a DII tournament of 4 teams, then the fraction of DI and DII men's teams is basically the same as that on the women's side. THAT is the proposal that volleyball should be bringing to the NCAA. Oh, and there should be a DIII tournament, too. I think most of you know this already but the DIII tournament is an invitational, not a true championship. This is the same in NAIA. Both groups need to have the 50 teams in their division to be "considered" for having its own Championship. I believe we had a thread this past summer/spring on th issue. They could combine DII and DIII and have their 50 but then DI couldn't have a championship!  |
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Jan 31, 2007 20:45:18 GMT -5
Are there 50 combined in DI/DII?
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Post by cyberVBmidwest on Jan 31, 2007 20:54:55 GMT -5
Are there 50 combined in DI/DII? There are not. The NCAA uses DI/DII/DIII for their total of 50. |
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Post by NobodySpecial on Jan 31, 2007 22:59:41 GMT -5
Just some random thoughts. According to current, official NCAA count for men's volleyball: web1.ncaa.org/onlineDir/exec/sponsorship?sortOrder=2&division=All&sport=MVBDivision I: 22 Division II: 15 (counts Newman which is technically provisional as it transitions from NAIA) Division III: 46 (about to lose one to NAIA in Clarke, gain a couple in the St. Louis area next year) Total NCAA Men's Volleyball Schools: 83 The current men's DI-II poll has top 15 spots being from Division I. In the past Lewis was a regular in the poll. UC San Diego is currently receiving votes as a DII school. The NCAA men's championship is an collegiate championship representing all three divisions. Unless the MIVA has changed its postseason tournament format from year's past, the league has Division III schools qualifying for the conference tournament (I believe the Coleman winner last year was the last seed in the conference tournament including Shondell/Dunlap Division teams) and the remote possibility existed that DIII team could capture the league's automatic berth into the NCAA tournament four-team field by winning the MIVA tournament. I would seriously doubt the NCAA would combine DII and DIII into one championship for a couple reasons. DIII is very serious about reaching 50 teams for a two-year period to be eligible for consideration of a stand-alone NCAA championship. Plus, DIII is non-scholarship and it would much rather compete against like schools if given the opportunity, which is the second reason. Third, if the the bottom two Divisions combined, Division II would have less than a third of the schools but probably win the combined championship more than not (based on past historical head-to-head results of top DII and DIII teams, although the top DIII teams have defeated some of the top DII teams such as Lewis and UC San Diego on occasion - it would definitely not be a shoe-in for DII). DIII would still be in an unfavorable position despite having over half of all NCAA schools in all divisions. Also, you would have to consider the fact some DII schools could drop men's VB altogether without the potential of at least an open collegiate championship or a combined DI-II championship (like schools who offer up to 4.5 scholarships). It is hard enough for DIII schools such as UC Santa Cruz in California to schedule matches against other DIII schools. Think how it would be if UC San Diego was not eligible for the current open collegiate championships. Also, for a DI only championship, only 22 teams would be battling for a championship. Hard to see the NCAA expanding the bracket in such a case when only DI schools eligible for a DI only title. Primarly, past expansion talk has been either considering the current open championship format with alternatives if DIII ever reached 50 schools for the 2-year qualifying period and granted a stand-alone championship. Again, just some thoughts to ponder when considering an expanded bracket and/or combining DII with DIII. |
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Post by cyberVBmidwest on Jan 31, 2007 23:33:14 GMT -5
EIVA also has two divisions with teams moving up and down based on their previous seasons performance. In theory, a DIII team could win the EIVA spot.  Another thing to think about....if DIII gets enough teams for their own official championship, that would leave LESS THAN 50 teams to compete for the DI/DII championship. Would NCAA allow this? Would the DI/DII become the invitational? |
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Post by NobodySpecial on Jan 31, 2007 23:45:46 GMT -5
I didn't mention the EIVA DIII possibility because it was already mentioned by a previous poster. To answer your questions. Yes, NCAA would allow a DI-II championship based on past published articles. DIII did not want to gain a championship at the expense of the other divisions' loss. That should answer your second question. The Molten invitational would disappear with a sanctioned NCAA DIII championship, and the NCAA championship would only be for DI-II. There has been discussion about a couple DIII schools who may still want to have the "opportunity" for a NCAA title competing against the DI-II schools. Not sure if the NCAA would force such DIII schools to make a decision. My instinct would be they would force the school to compete only for the DIII championship because that is their affiliated division and such championship was created. Only 8 schools (I think that is the current correct number) has been grandfathered into playing a male and a female sport up (i.e. Division III Rutgers-Newark playing Division I men's volleyball with scholarships).
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