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Post by head31919 on May 20, 2012 0:51:53 GMT -5
What other sports built from the college level down? Soccer didn't. Lacrosse didn't. The more they grew at the local level, starting with grass roots programs, the more they grew at the high school level and club level. Then the colleges came along. Trying to build a sport from the top down is silly. Kids play sports because they are fun. No 10 year old starts playing a sport because they want to get a college scholarship. Is North Carolina rushing to add the sport at the high school levels now that the Conference Carolinas added it? Title IX? Might have a little to do with it, but probably more so is the fact that money is tight these days. We hear about schools cutting lots of programs, and budgets being cut all over the place. States are cutting funding to schools. so how do you add programs when the school budget is being cut? I have talked to administrators at a couple of schools who have added men's and women's lacrosse in the past couple of years. This motivation comes not from the athletic department, but from the admissions department. They believe that adding those sports boosts the applicants to the schools in certain demographics. Meaning they can get applicants from certain parts of the country who are wealthy. They don't see that opportunity with men's volleyball. We keep talking about why schools should add men's volleyball. If you are a fan of the sport, you think that is a no brainer. But we need to find out why schools aren't adding the sport, and address those issues. Obviously, there is a reason why it isn't being picked up by colleges. So to keep stating the same old arguments over and over is pointless. What areas are rich in lacrosse? Not in terms of $ but popularity. Maryland is the lacrosse capitol of the US. It's pretty big from the up through most of the northeast. |
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Post by head31919 on May 20, 2012 0:58:12 GMT -5
Also, I don't buy the argument that the women's game is more popular because of the longer rallies. High school volleyball has longer rallies than college and nobody would say that it's more exciting. Take somebody who is used to watching women's volleyball and take them to a high-level men's college or men's international match and they will say "Holy %*$#!" at least 3 times throughout the match.
Men's volleyball is an extremely exciting live sporting event. The issue is that nobody (outside of a few pockets at certain schools here and there) really cares about the game. And it doesn't translate all that well to TV coverage.
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Post by vbfocus10 on May 20, 2012 3:28:15 GMT -5
I agree. My boys won't even watch the women's game saying it is boring and not athletic.
Also, VBNerd comments earlier in this string that women's tennis (with a slower pace and longer volleys) that the ratings are higher for the women's game than the mens game. This is largely false. I have checked rating for Wimbeldon and the US open and in both cases the mens game out rates the women's game on average.
Most people find the power and faster pace of the mens game preferable for the spectator. I stand by my earlier point
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Post by jna on May 20, 2012 8:36:31 GMT -5
How popular is men's volleyball in Nebraska?.
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Post by psuvbfan10 on May 20, 2012 10:20:29 GMT -5
What areas are rich in lacrosse? Not in terms of $ but popularity. Maryland is the lacrosse capitol of the US. It's pretty big from the up through most of the northeast. Interesting that areas with a lot of lacrosse are in the northeast which also a prosperous area for boys vb and men's growth (Div II, III anyway). Both sports seem to co-exist & grow at the HS/club level. |
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Post by vbvet1 on May 20, 2012 10:47:54 GMT -5
At the D1 level, title IX is the issue. Ask any AD. The perfect example is Wisconsin. UW competes with UH and Neb in attendance each year. They have a facility dedicated to women's volleyball. Wisconsin has had boys high school vb since the 40s. The athletic department has a positive revenue picture due to football, basketball, hockey, wrestling, and women's vb. Madison is in close proximity to the MIVA schools. They have not added men's vb.
This is not generally the issue at D2 and D3. Men's VB is the most inexpensive sport to add at the college level since virtually every college has a women's team. Yet in smaller schools, the lack of practice facilities is often a problem. The conflict with basketball for practice time is always a battle in a small school.
If a college is attempting to recruit more students and has dorm space, men's vb is the financially sound sport to add. This is what is behind the growth of Conference Carolinas.
Men's vb must also battle the fact that ADs and conference admins generally do not understand men's vb. Why would they add it over another sport? Yet, the addition of women's sand vb provides some Title IX room for men's vb at the D1 level. There is hope.
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Post by s0uthie on May 23, 2012 15:48:37 GMT -5
Men's vb must also battle the fact that ADs and conference admins generally do not understand men's vb. Why would they add it over another sport? Yet, the addition of women's sand vb provides some Title IX room for men's vb at the D1 level. There is hope. I suspect that the addition of sand volleyball will give some Title IX room to increase the football and basketball budgets by a similar amount. But I suppose there is hope. |
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Post by vbvet1 on May 23, 2012 22:55:23 GMT -5
Note: Budget is not the issue. It is athletic opportunities as defined by Title IX.
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Post by bbk on May 24, 2012 9:53:39 GMT -5
As long as many of the Football Powers (read BCS) use 70+ scholarships, Men's Sports including Volleyball will stay stagnant at the Division I level.
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Post by rbball02 on May 24, 2012 11:18:24 GMT -5
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Post by pastvne on May 24, 2012 13:27:32 GMT -5
A short while ago, this article ran just after the Colorado Boys HS Volleyball Association's State Championships www.greeleytribune.com/article/20120516/SPORTS/705169920/1011/rssDoAppMy commentsFor years, boys vb supporters in Colorado have worked to establish boys VB as a Colorado High School Activities Association (CHSAA) sanctioned sport. The bottom line is that CHSAA is a administrative collective for the State's Athletic Directors. Ask an AD to support boys VB and he'll blame CHSAA and Title IX. Ask CHSAA to sanction boys VB and they will say they only do the bidding of the ADs and there is no support. There is interest in the sport at the grassroots level but not at the AD level and certainly not at the CHSAA level. AD's are under intense pressure and tight budgets. I believe many have concluded, some reluctantly, that the risk associated with doing the right thing outweighs the benefits. If you argue that the gyms are open because it [boys volleyball] is a spring sport, most ADs will say that they reserve the gyms for inclimate weather for spring sports like baseball. If you say you'll be happy to cancel practice if weather is bad and the gym is needed, we've been told that they just don't need the hassle.
Here are a few quotes from the above article from the head of CHSAA, Paul Angelico:“Having it sanctioned by CHSAA doesn’t really do anything for them other than giving them more rules to follow,” Angelico said. “Lacrosse came in and got sanctioned. … Then they couldn’t do this or that. We say, ‘Remember, you asked for this.’ The freedom they got from not being a member of the organization is not necessarily a bad thing.”
"Angelico said sanctioning isn’t a magic bullet for support."“We don’t add sports at the office level,” Angelico said. “The only way (boys volleyball) can be added is if a league comes to our legislative council. The clubs have wanted to add boys volleyball, but they haven’t gotten a league to sponsor it.”“Most schools at this point are really not in full compliance with Title IX,” Angelico said. “Adding another boys sport is going to put them in worse shape.”But the most telling comment from the article also came from Angelico.
Colorado High School Activities Association President Paul Angelico said he’s heard some rumblings that introducing boys volleyball at the high school level would hurt support for girls volleyball.
“People always want to see the best competition,” Angelico said. “They watch men’s basketball because they want to see dunks.”The article contains loads of very insightful quotes from boys and women who are coaching these boys teams and are beyond frustrated with the situation. Like these:For coaches like Warnock, geography is a small part of it. There is interest, she insists. There just isn’t interest from the people who make the decisions. If the numbers work in Arizona, why can’t they work here, she said.
“How are other states managing that?” [Karen] Warnock asked. “I’m getting really frustrated with the whole thing.”
As frustrated as Warnock said she is, she has an easy answer for those who would question why she still puts up with it.
“Watching them improve year after year,” [Karen] Warnock said. “They’re calling me and asking, ‘Are you gonna coach, when are tryouts?’ They are great kids, they love the sport, they want to improve they want to play. And they really just want to represent (their schools).”“I can’t even imagine how much it would grow, how big it would be if there was [CHSSA] support out there,” [Karen] Warnock said. |
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Post by turosan on May 24, 2012 15:53:42 GMT -5
There is no reason that men's/boy's volleyball can not grow. While the demand is there, boys love to play and would flock to programs if they were established. It is basically politics. Athletic directors at the high school level do not have the back bone or the gumption to start a program. With pay for play the cost is minimal, but all the other coaches feat that the sport would take away from theirs. Baseball and track in particular, but even basketball (which would benefit from vball) and football see it as a threat and athletic directors don't want to ruffle feathers. Like I said ADs are spineless, at least most of them. While the same is true of ADs at the college level at the moment there are not enough highschools around that would provide recruits to adequately supply the need if a lot of colleges suddenly added. The pressure should be at the highschool and club level. As many folks as possible should lobby local school districts, clubs and municipalities to promote boys volleyball. from there it would be a trickle up effect.
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Post by volleyballhawk on May 24, 2012 18:25:12 GMT -5
Awesome article. Any baseball proponent crying over only having 11.7 scholarships can cry me a freakin river. We only get 4.5. A couple of the theories in that article, though, had big flaws. Allow schools to give however many scholarships they want to their Olympic sports? No way. Then you'd have rich athletic departments (like USC, UCLA) able to offer 10 schollies for men's volleyball, and smaller budget schools wouldn't come close to competing with that. The disparity between the top and bottom would be too great. The silent killer of sports like men's volleyball IS scholarship limits, like the article points out. There's nothing like seeing 20 rowing, 12 rugby, 15 equestrian, and 5 bowling scholarships for women, while those particular sports offer 0 for men. Ridiculous. |
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Post by mhdprod on May 24, 2012 19:46:51 GMT -5
There's women's bowling scholarships...
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Post by fogballer on May 25, 2012 5:01:26 GMT -5
This topic was fresh and interesting about 20 years ago. It's old and tired now. And nothing has changed.
20 years from now, it will be the same rehashed argument again.
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