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Post by Garand on Jul 16, 2014 10:37:02 GMT -5
After watching some of the most recent national team matches, I was reminded of something I've observed over the years: As the level of play rises, the number of kills by setters drops off. What was common in club and high school seems to have nearly disappeared at the international level. College appears to fall somewhere in the middle.
I haven't checked the stats for the recent NT matches against Brazil, but I remember only two or three dumps by Glass during the whole thing. I've always assumed that as defenses just become quicker and better, it becomes much tougher to find a hole for a dumped ball on the other side of the net. Would anyone care to comment on the other, more subtle factors involved?
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jul 16, 2014 10:42:19 GMT -5
After watching some of the most recent national team matches, I was reminded of something I've observed over the years: As the level of play rises, the number of kills by setters drops off. What was common in club and high school seems to have nearly disappeared at the international level. College appears to fall somewhere in the middle. I haven't checked the stats for the recent NT matches against Brazil, but I remember only two or three dumps by Glass during the whole thing. I've always assumed that as defenses just become quicker and better, it becomes much tougher to find a hole for a dumped ball on the other side of the net. Would anyone care to comment on the other, more subtle factors involved? I'd bet that's right. Another factor is how much better opposing teams are at terminating. You're giving up a (usually) in system opportunity to dump, and if it doesn't work the opponents usually have a pretty good crack at it. I think most of Glass' dumps were in emergency situations. Dirickx is the only int'l female setter I recall as super offensive off the top of my head, and she's a lefty who swings (a la Hancock).
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Post by newenglander on Jul 16, 2014 12:10:56 GMT -5
Probably driven by stats, if the setter has a better hitting efficiency than the hitters let them at it but if not, set the hitter.
If you think about it, the setter is surrounded by the MH1 and OH1 so they should have stronger hitters with them in the front row.
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Post by kro2488 on Jul 16, 2014 12:14:38 GMT -5
Even in college you only wanna do it once or twice a match against good teams and it's better if you can whack it HARD. And that's only if you see the middle lean one way too early or they aren't remembering your front row and have their hands low instead of up high all ready. Decent teams will start picking on two hits up and transition them for points if it's done too much. Same at international level.
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Post by vbshrink on Jul 16, 2014 20:27:14 GMT -5
And here I thought this was another thread about volleyball-related crime.
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Post by ja on Jul 16, 2014 22:36:02 GMT -5
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Post by Garand on Jul 17, 2014 0:22:37 GMT -5
And here I thought this was another thread about volleyball-related crime. Could still go that way.
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Post by Garand on Jul 17, 2014 1:01:22 GMT -5
Thanks, Ja. Parkhomenko is impressive; I'm reminded a little of Murphy during her Florida days. I assume that Parkhomenko is left handed; being a tall left-handed setter is pretty rare. She has the huge advantage of having her normal setting jump putting her high enough to hit the ball almost straight downward over the net. Does anyone know what she touches? As someone pointed out earlier, besides whatever points she scores, she's keeping the middles tight and providing her pin hitters with improved scoring opportunities. I also like the nice little behind the back dump. Don't get to see that very often.
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Post by Sbilo on Jul 19, 2014 13:56:43 GMT -5
The best setter in this category would have to be Jeff Stork of the USA Men's Team in the 80's (Karch's teammate). He could go in a match with 15 kills as a setter. And it doesn't hurt that he is a lefty too. He was fun to watch. One of my favorites.
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Post by Phillytom on Jul 19, 2014 14:32:22 GMT -5
I think if anything it is an underrated part of a volleyball offense. If you have a setter big enough or athletic enough, it can have a big impact. PSU's Hancock has really worked on second touch hitting -- how to read the right situation, how to disguise it, how to find the floor. During the national championship match, Karch said the Wisconsin coaches are working with Carlini teaching her to hit like Hancock on the 2nd touch. Carlini has the size and leaping ability to do it well. The problem with the simple dump is you have limited area to aim for and the defense has a better chance of digging it. If you have a setter who can elevate enough to really hit the ball obviously they have a lot more of the floor available to them. But really it's not just about terminating, it's about keeping the opposition defense from cheating. When the back row players cheat to one side, the setter can sometimes put the ball in the empty corner. But obviously the most important thing is getting the middles to have to defend twice. They have to be ready and often in the air on the 2nd touch and then, if it's a set, they have to spring back up and over to defend the outside. Most middles get tired of this. If you can slow the middle's reaction time just a tenth of a second, that represents a hole in the block for your outside. Definitely a lot of the dumps you see are bad passes right on the net, and the setter is just getting it over. They are low-percentage plays unless your setter can really hit the ball hard, because the opposition sees that bad pass and is usually ready. After watching some of the most recent national team matches, I was reminded of something I've observed over the years: As the level of play rises, the number of kills by setters drops off. What was common in club and high school seems to have nearly disappeared at the international level. College appears to fall somewhere in the middle. I haven't checked the stats for the recent NT matches against Brazil, but I remember only two or three dumps by Glass during the whole thing. I've always assumed that as defenses just become quicker and better, it becomes much tougher to find a hole for a dumped ball on the other side of the net. Would anyone care to comment on the other, more subtle factors involved?
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Post by kro2488 on Jul 19, 2014 14:54:08 GMT -5
I think if anything it is an underrated part of a volleyball offense. If you have a setter big enough or athletic enough, it can have a big impact. PSU's Hancock has really worked on second touch hitting -- how to read the right situation, how to disguise it, how to find the floor. During the national championship match, Karch said the Wisconsin coaches are working with Carlini teaching her to hit like Hancock on the 2nd touch. Carlini has the size and leaping ability to do it well. The problem with the simple dump is you have limited area to aim for and the defense has a better chance of digging it. If you have a setter who can elevate enough to really hit the ball obviously they have a lot more of the floor available to them. But really it's not just about terminating, it's about keeping the opposition defense from cheating. When the back row players cheat to one side, the setter can sometimes put the ball in the empty corner. But obviously the most important thing is getting the middles to have to defend twice. They have to be ready and often in the air on the 2nd touch and then, if it's a set, they have to spring back up and over to defend the outside. Most middles get tired of this. If you can slow the middle's reaction time just a tenth of a second, that represents a hole in the block for your outside. Definitely a lot of the dumps you see are bad passes right on the net, and the setter is just getting it over. They are low-percentage plays unless your setter can really hit the ball hard, because the opposition sees that bad pass and is usually ready. After watching some of the most recent national team matches, I was reminded of something I've observed over the years: As the level of play rises, the number of kills by setters drops off. What was common in club and high school seems to have nearly disappeared at the international level. College appears to fall somewhere in the middle. I haven't checked the stats for the recent NT matches against Brazil, but I remember only two or three dumps by Glass during the whole thing. I've always assumed that as defenses just become quicker and better, it becomes much tougher to find a hole for a dumped ball on the other side of the net. Would anyone care to comment on the other, more subtle factors involved? That's if the ball control is even there for them to do it as well. If the opposing team is serving like they should be the setter should be further back off the net to make it really hard to hit the floor with a second contact attack. Really when blockers keep track where the setter is they can bring the blocking base in more to help stop or slow down an attacking setter in front row roations it just really isn't that effective long term, as defeders should learn to get ready for it after first few times as well. But just my opinion.
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Post by n00b on Jul 19, 2014 15:42:09 GMT -5
That's if the ball control is even there for them to do it as well. If the opposing team is serving like they should be the setter should be further back off the net to make it really hard to hit the floor with a second contact attack. Really when blockers keep track where the setter is they can bring the blocking base in more to help stop or slow down an attacking setter in front row roations it just really isn't that effective long term, as defeders should learn to get ready for it after first few times as well. But just my opinion. If the threat of it is causing the opposing blocker to change their scheme to defend the setter dump, then it is effective whether the setter is attacking for a high percentage or not because the hitters' efficiency will go up.
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Post by Garand on Jul 19, 2014 16:09:41 GMT -5
If the threat of a second ball kill by the setter delays the middle from closing the block for even a tiny moment longer, then it has increased the pin hitters chances of hitting into a solo block instead of a fully formed double block. Done well, this makes middle's job harder (and drives them a little crazy).
And BTW, not all second ball hits are the result of poor passing. With a skilled enough setter, teams will deliberately set tight to the net to create this situation.
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Post by pancakesandgators on Jul 19, 2014 17:09:22 GMT -5
After watching some of the most recent national team matches, I was reminded of something I've observed over the years: As the level of play rises, the number of kills by setters drops off. What was common in club and high school seems to have nearly disappeared at the international level. College appears to fall somewhere in the middle. I haven't checked the stats for the recent NT matches against Brazil, but I remember only two or three dumps by Glass during the whole thing. I've always assumed that as defenses just become quicker and better, it becomes much tougher to find a hole for a dumped ball on the other side of the net. Would anyone care to comment on the other, more subtle factors involved? I think a large part of the setter dump dropping off at the international level is due partially to where teams are running the offense from on the floor. International setters are able to run their middles from 5 to 10 feet off the net. The passers are passing extremely effective serves and defensively trying to handle very strong attacks. Rather have those passes in the 5 to 10 foot zone than attempted to be passed up to the net. The 5 to 10 foot zone gives the passers just an easier zone to pass to. With the increased level, there is less opportunity for the dump to occur. I do think that the dump could be greater utilized at the college level, but it requires a high volleyball IQ and athleticism of the setter. Both Hancock and Carlini, IMO, have true setter dumps. By a true setter dump, I mean they attack with force to the floor. Bonnie Bremner also had a great setter dump. I personally am not a fan of the two handed dump that has seemed to plague the juniors and some of the college game. I think it is very over-utilized. I would love to see junior setters learn to utilize a stronger one handed dump.
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Post by kro2488 on Jul 19, 2014 17:57:32 GMT -5
That's if the ball control is even there for them to do it as well. If the opposing team is serving like they should be the setter should be further back off the net to make it really hard to hit the floor with a second contact attack. Really when blockers keep track where the setter is they can bring the blocking base in more to help stop or slow down an attacking setter in front row roations it just really isn't that effective long term, as defeders should learn to get ready for it after first few times as well. But just my opinion. If the threat of it is causing the opposing blocker to change their scheme to defend the setter dump, then it is effective whether the setter is attacking for a high percentage or not because the hitters' efficiency will go up. Teams will scout and see it on replays. They will be used to making that adjustment and still be able to shutdown or slowdown the other hitters. I've seen that happen before but also have seen setter attacking work the other way as well, it just depends on how well blockers and defenders can deal with it. It's pretty awsome to see a setter take a a real hard swing then the middle blocker stuffs it back into his or her face. Works better if its done once or twice a match like i said before if a team is going to have a setter that can do it, the net might be wide open more often that way because blockers will forget and no defender will touch it. Pick a critical time then in transition get a good dig then WHAM.
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