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Post by holidayhusker on Jul 30, 2014 23:17:39 GMT -5
and yet....she plays average defense. Not a complete player but a impressive attacker!! Lets judge Haley on the merit of her all around talent and not because she can hit with a big ," kaboom!" People would say the same thing about Hodge in college... I agree!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 23:21:13 GMT -5
I'm just waiting for you to learn how to actually spell "Eckerman." yeah, because that actually changes the debate. Agreed, big guy.
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Post by holidayhusker on Jul 30, 2014 23:21:53 GMT -5
and yet....she plays average defense. Not a complete player but a impressive attacker!! Lets judge Haley on the merit of her all around talent and not because she can hit with a big ," kaboom!" Hooker only had average defense until her senior year and then went on to start in the next Olympics as USA's top scorer. I'm not saying Eckerman is at the level Hooker is/was, just that you can't discredit someone's talent because of their average defense I am certainly not discrediting her at all. Hooker is not that great at defense and Eckerman certainly isn't. In my opinion , this is what makes a great all around OH. The people on this board, I would like to think are a little more familiar with the all around game, not to be super impressed with a hitter who can terminate at will but has average other skills.
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Post by spikerthemovie on Jul 30, 2014 23:24:46 GMT -5
Why was Nora included in this conversation? I mean she has decent numbers but one of the top OPPs in the country? Not really. She's really dedicated herself and gotten in better shape this offseason! I bet she'll be a force this year. A top 3 opposite in the country though, or even a top 5/6 RS? I'd agree with you, that's pushing it. I don't think it's out of the question that Nora will end up as one of the best OPPs this season. She was in the top ten or so in hitting percentage, among OPPs, last season and an All-American honorable mention. It would not be a huge leap -- particularly, if as we keep hearing, she had a productive off-season.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jul 30, 2014 23:31:52 GMT -5
Hooker only had average defense until her senior year and then went on to start in the next Olympics as USA's top scorer. I'm not saying Eckerman is at the level Hooker is/was, just that you can't discredit someone's talent because of their average defense I am certainly not discrediting her at all. Hooker is not that great at defense and Eckerman certainly isn't. In my opinion , this is what makes a great all around OH. The people on this board, I would like to think are a little more familiar with the all around game, not to be super impressed with a hitter who can terminate at will but has average other skills. While Eckerman ( I hope I spelled that write) may not have a great all-around game, she has been one of the most dominant college players the last couple of years. Who say's you have to have great all-around skills to be a great player? You don't. Foluke didn't, Hooker didn't, Fawcett didn't....... they are collegiate legends. It simply doesn't matter "how" you impact, just that you do.
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Post by holidayhusker on Jul 31, 2014 3:06:54 GMT -5
I am certainly not discrediting her at all. Hooker is not that great at defense and Eckerman certainly isn't. In my opinion , this is what makes a great all around OH. The people on this board, I would like to think are a little more familiar with the all around game, not to be super impressed with a hitter who can terminate at will but has average other skills. While Eckerman ( I hope I spelled that write) may not have a great all-around game, she has been one of the most dominant college players the last couple of years. Who say's you have to have great all-around skills to be a great player? You don't. Foluke didn't, Hooker didn't, Fawcett didn't....... they are collegiate legends. It simply doesn't matter "how" you impact, just that you do. Again....find a post of mine where I disagree with you but.....we are debating what makes a complete dominant player. Karch vs Steve Timmons is a great example. Do we revere a player with one great skill vs a player who has mastered every skill in volleyball and does all of those skills very well? ( Logan Tom-Jordan Larson) As a true fan Dorothy what do you admire? Most fans want the shock and awe of a big impressive blaster like Timmons who can rocket a ball into the third tier of stands off the floor. Someone however who truly understands the complexities of the game and how important all positions are, should know better.
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Post by ay2013 on Jul 31, 2014 3:20:28 GMT -5
How can she have the greatest career since Megan Hodge, when she doesn't even have the greatest career at her position in her class? Through her career, Vansant averages at least slightly higher than Eckerman in kills/s, hitting percentage, points/s, block/s, digs/s , serve receive percentage. The only thing Eckerman has more of are aces, which she more than cancels out with errors. Vansant also has been playing against a higher level of competition night in and night out with a much weaker supporting cast. Not to mention hr actual AVCA NPOY award. If we judge a player by how many conference POY they won, shouldn't Darcy Dorton have been proclaimed the best player last year? I agree that there are nto 3 players better than Eckerman, but don't pretend like she's been dominating college volleyball the last few years in Hodge, Tom or Nnamani fashion. Vansant had a much better 2013 and was rewarded with a POY honor. However, Vansant was not even HM All-American as a freshman when Eckermann was 2nd team. Vansant was 2nd team as a sophomore when Eckermann, may have been the best player in the country. Career wise Eckermann has a few more kills, Vansant's hitting percentage is .003 higher. Eckermann has 1517 points and Vansant has 1525. They are different and yet comparable. Vansant's team was 2-1, and 1-1 before making the final 4 last year, and has a 7-3 December record. Eckermann has made the Elite 8, National Title and Final Four to earn a 13-2 tournament record, and outside of Penn State that's about as good as it gets. And that isn't saying Vansant isn't a great player, and I actually think she has a brighter WNT career ahead of her, but who has had the better college career to date? I'm sorry, it's Eckermann. All that said, my issue isn't with Vansant vs Eckermann, its with any other OHs being put in that category. Bricio's atk % is lower than any season Eckerman has had and her PPS is higher than Eckermann's freshman year, but not at the level of her last two seasons. Courtney is a very different OH but for comparison sake Courtney had double digit digs 12 times and kills 13 times. Eckermann had double-digit digs only 11 times but had double-digit kills 27 times. Brenner's hitting % is .20 lower for their career and was .40 lower last season. Again, I'm not saying that any of these players are bad or inferior, we'd all take any of them on our team, but they just aren't as great as Eckermann has been to date. in your comparison of Eckerman and Vansant, are you justifying Eckerman based on AA awards? We all know that where a player lands on the AA list is more than just a players contribution, it's about a team, and where they finish, and anyone that suggests otherwise is kidding themselves. You don't think that the mere fact that Texas reached the elite 8 while Washington didn't make a regional in 2011 affected where these two ended up in the awards category? and certainly Tournament finishes are TEAM efforts. Bringing up the freshmen awards discrepancy only highlight my point. Looking at freshmen stats, Eckerman had 3.56 kps, .254 hitting percentage, 0.19 services aces per set, 0.64 digs per set, and 0.40 blocks per set with a supporting cast that consisted of 5 other top 10 players. meanwhile Vansant had 3.69 kps, .248 hitting percentage, 0.22 service aces per set, 2.28 digs per set, 0.48 blocks per set. How anyone can suggest that Eckerman was BETTER than Vansant as a freshmen is beyond me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 3:44:40 GMT -5
Vansant had a much better 2013 and was rewarded with a POY honor. However, Vansant was not even HM All-American as a freshman when Eckermann was 2nd team. Vansant was 2nd team as a sophomore when Eckermann, may have been the best player in the country. Career wise Eckermann has a few more kills, Vansant's hitting percentage is .003 higher. Eckermann has 1517 points and Vansant has 1525. They are different and yet comparable. Vansant's team was 2-1, and 1-1 before making the final 4 last year, and has a 7-3 December record. Eckermann has made the Elite 8, National Title and Final Four to earn a 13-2 tournament record, and outside of Penn State that's about as good as it gets. And that isn't saying Vansant isn't a great player, and I actually think she has a brighter WNT career ahead of her, but who has had the better college career to date? I'm sorry, it's Eckermann. All that said, my issue isn't with Vansant vs Eckermann, its with any other OHs being put in that category. Bricio's atk % is lower than any season Eckerman has had and her PPS is higher than Eckermann's freshman year, but not at the level of her last two seasons. Courtney is a very different OH but for comparison sake Courtney had double digit digs 12 times and kills 13 times. Eckermann had double-digit digs only 11 times but had double-digit kills 27 times. Brenner's hitting % is .20 lower for their career and was .40 lower last season. Again, I'm not saying that any of these players are bad or inferior, we'd all take any of them on our team, but they just aren't as great as Eckermann has been to date. in your comparison of Eckerman and Vansant, are you justifying Eckerman based on AA awards? We all know that where a player lands on the AA list is more than just a players contribution, it's about a team, and where they finish, and anyone that suggests otherwise is kidding themselves. You don't think that the mere fact that Texas reached the elite 8 while Washington didn't make a regional in 2011 affected where these two ended up in the awards category? and certainly Tournament finishes are TEAM efforts. Bringing up the freshmen awards discrepancy only highlight my point. Looking at freshmen stats, Eckerman had 3.56 kps, .254 hitting percentage, 0.19 services aces per set, 0.64 digs per set, and 0.40 blocks per set with a supporting cast that consisted of 5 other top 10 players. meanwhile Vansant had 3.69 kps, .248 hitting percentage, 0.22 service aces per set, 2.28 digs per set, 0.48 blocks per set. How anyone can suggest that Eckerman was BETTER than Vansant as a freshmen is beyond me. Not to mention playing in a much, much stronger conference and having much, much less high-profile talent surrounding her. It's a no-brainer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 5:37:20 GMT -5
Was someone saying Vansant wasn't number 1?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 5:55:08 GMT -5
I am certainly not discrediting her at all. Hooker is not that great at defense and Eckerman certainly isn't. In my opinion , this is what makes a great all around OH. The people on this board, I would like to think are a little more familiar with the all around game, not to be super impressed with a hitter who can terminate at will but has average other skills. While Eckerman ( I hope I spelled that write) may not have a great all-around game, she has been one of the most dominant college players the last couple of years. Who say's you have to have great all-around skills to be a great player? You don't. Foluke didn't, Hooker didn't, Fawcett didn't....... they are collegiate legends. It simply doesn't matter "how" you impact, just that you do. "Write. Good one." No one is saying that she doesn't impact matches. She does. That is evident. The thread is about the best players at each position. Just because Eckerman impacts matches means she's one of the best outside hitters in the nation? I disagree. I think her passing is a massive weakness for her team, and something that every opponent takes advantage of. She's a very good player and a very strong attacker, but if I was drafting a team, she wouldn't make my top two lefts. Others do not agree. Hell, she wouldn't have made my top seven last season (using my personal definition). I also think the discussion has changed as the definition of positions has changed as substitutions increased over the years. Just saying "outside hitter" doesn't mean "receiver/attacker" anymore.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jul 31, 2014 8:32:12 GMT -5
While Eckerman ( I hope I spelled that write) may not have a great all-around game, she has been one of the most dominant college players the last couple of years. Who say's you have to have great all-around skills to be a great player? You don't. Foluke didn't, Hooker didn't, Fawcett didn't....... they are collegiate legends. It simply doesn't matter "how" you impact, just that you do. "Write. Good one." No one is saying that she doesn't impact matches. She does. That is evident. The thread is about the best players at each position. Just because Eckerman impacts matches means she's one of the best outside hitters in the nation? I disagree. I think her passing is a massive weakness for her team, and something that every opponent takes advantage of. She's a very good player and a very strong attacker, but if I was drafting a team, she wouldn't make my top two lefts. Others do not agree. Hell, she wouldn't have made my top seven last season (using my personal definition). I also think the discussion has changed as the definition of positions has changed as substitutions increased over the years. Just saying "outside hitter" doesn't mean "receiver/attacker" anymore. I'd submit if you didn't draft her among the top 4 OH's, you wouldn't make it as a GM.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 9:13:07 GMT -5
While Eckerman ( I hope I spelled that write) may not have a great all-around game, she has been one of the most dominant college players the last couple of years. Who say's you have to have great all-around skills to be a great player? You don't. Foluke didn't, Hooker didn't, Fawcett didn't....... they are collegiate legends. It simply doesn't matter "how" you impact, just that you do. "Write. Good one." No one is saying that she doesn't impact matches. She does. That is evident. The thread is about the best players at each position. Just because Eckerman impacts matches means she's one of the best outside hitters in the nation? I disagree. I think her passing is a massive weakness for her team, and something that every opponent takes advantage of. She's a very good player and a very strong attacker, but if I was drafting a team, she wouldn't make my top two lefts. Others do not agree. Hell, she wouldn't have made my top seven last season (using my personal definition). I also think the discussion has changed as the definition of positions has changed as substitutions increased over the years. Just saying "outside hitter" doesn't mean "receiver/attacker" anymore. Reception should be a primary consideration when debating outside hitters IMO. I'm curious who your top 4 would be if you don't mind sharing?
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jul 31, 2014 9:24:15 GMT -5
"Write. Good one." No one is saying that she doesn't impact matches. She does. That is evident. The thread is about the best players at each position. Just because Eckerman impacts matches means she's one of the best outside hitters in the nation? I disagree. I think her passing is a massive weakness for her team, and something that every opponent takes advantage of. She's a very good player and a very strong attacker, but if I was drafting a team, she wouldn't make my top two lefts. Others do not agree. Hell, she wouldn't have made my top seven last season (using my personal definition). I also think the discussion has changed as the definition of positions has changed as substitutions increased over the years. Just saying "outside hitter" doesn't mean "receiver/attacker" anymore. Reception should be a primary consideration when debating outside hitters IMO. I'm curious who your top 4 would be if you don't mind sharing? In a perfect world it would.
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Post by dorothymantooth on Jul 31, 2014 9:24:27 GMT -5
"Write. Good one." No one is saying that she doesn't impact matches. She does. That is evident. The thread is about the best players at each position. Just because Eckerman impacts matches means she's one of the best outside hitters in the nation? I disagree. I think her passing is a massive weakness for her team, and something that every opponent takes advantage of. She's a very good player and a very strong attacker, but if I was drafting a team, she wouldn't make my top two lefts. Others do not agree. Hell, she wouldn't have made my top seven last season (using my personal definition). I also think the discussion has changed as the definition of positions has changed as substitutions increased over the years. Just saying "outside hitter" doesn't mean "receiver/attacker" anymore. Reception should be a primary consideration when debating outside hitters IMO. I'm curious who your top 4 would be if you don't mind sharing? In a perfect world it would.
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Post by pepperbrooks on Jul 31, 2014 9:26:28 GMT -5
She lead her team in points and kills last year. And yeah, she's absolutely in the pipeline for,the national team. Points AND kills??? Cool! No other outside hitter ever does that!! WOWOWOWWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW. You're the one that said she wasn't even one of the best pin hitters on her own team, genius.
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