Question about Libero Rotation

[feltrider]

I'm helping coach a team and there's one thing I am not totally clear on.  It's how to rotate one Libero from the one MH going to the front row to the MH moving to the back row.  There is no substitution so where and how does the transfer take place?  Does the do the MH's just swap behind the 10' line or does there have to be a full point in-between the two libero coverages?

Thanks for your help on this seemingly easy question.  

[Deleted]

Not a sub. Middles switch beyond the 10 foot line. If the libero can't serve, of course, it's different. But still not a sub.

Remember that if you used a server for your middle, you have to sub the middle back in for that player.

[mikegarrison]

Aug 19, 2014 18:11:49 GMT -5 @pedant said:

Not a sub. Middles switch beyond the 10 foot line. If the libero can't serve, of course, it's different. But still not a sub.

Remember that if you used a server for your middle, you have to sub the middle back in for that player.

Yeah, you see that a lot. The serving sub is in the bench area, runs on court, does the hand-touch thing with the middle she served for, and then goes back to the bench.

[Deleted]

Well ... that would be illegal, so I doubt that's what you see. You'll see the middles do that hand-touch thing, if it's a middle for middle swap and the libero serves. But if there was a serving sub, she has to sub out before the middle can come back in.

[jgrout]

Aug 19, 2014 18:55:06 GMT -5 @pedant said:

Well ... that would be illegal, so I doubt that's what you see. You'll see the middles do that hand-touch thing, if it's a middle for middle swap and the libero serves. But if there was a serving sub, she has to sub out before the middle can come back in.

Yes... but if the back-row MB replaces the serving sub as soon as possible... say at the same time the libero comes back into the match... that's already been taken care of.

Stanford used to wait to sub out the serving sub until her rotation reached the front row, but switched to doing it immediately a ways back. That may have more to do with confidence that the libero won't need to go sideways (*) to cover up a weak-passing outside and need the serving sub to play defense than the hand-touch thing.

(*) - If the serving sub is not replaced immediately, the libero can come out for a point, come back in, substitute for a different player and still serve in her correct rotation by going "sideways" within the back row rather than from front to back. I've only seen Coach Dunning do that once... to protect a back-row outside who was being eaten alive on serve.

[mikegarrison]

Aug 19, 2014 18:55:06 GMT -5 @pedant said:

Well ... that would be illegal, so I doubt that's what you see. You'll see the middles do that hand-touch thing, if it's a middle for middle swap and the libero serves. But if there was a serving sub, she has to sub out before the middle can come back in.

What would be illegal about it?

1) MB rotates to serving spot. Gets subbed by server. Libero comes out for her one rotation she can't be on the floor.
2) Libero comes back in for the server when service run ends. This is not a substitution, so the server is still officially in the spot.
3) A couple rotations later, that spot comes back to the front. What do you think happens? Exactly what I described -- the server on the bench runs on court, subs with the MB, and runs back off court again.

[Deleted]

That's not what you described, and now you're saying two things:

1) Server runs on to the court (legal switch with libero, but illegal as described)
2) Subs with the MB (yes)
3) Runs back off the court again (illegal as described)

The server MUST sub, a regular sub before the 10 foot line, with the middle. The OTHER middle, if the libero is serving for her, can come off without being subbed. But the important thing here is that this is a sub (the serving sub who rotates to the front row and the middle) and COUNTS as one of their subs.

Yes, they could do this earlier as jgrout described. But it would still have to be a sub. THEN the libero can come in.

I'm not making this up, mikegarrison. This is the rule.

[springs]

Libero is on the court for MH #1 and MH #9. She serves for #9.

When she gets to position 5, and her team wins the sideout rally, she runs off the court (in libero exchange zone) for MH #1 who is coming in to serve.

The coach decides he wants to sub #2 in to serve. MH #1 goes from libero exchange zone to the sub zone. #2 goes back and serves.

When the team loses the rally, the libero comes into the match for her. When libero gets to position 5, serve receive rally is won and she goes directly to position 1 to serve (for MH #9). Player #2 leaves the bench and exchanges with the libero, goes directly to the sub zone and MH #1 subs in.

[Deleted]

This is a better description than mine, as I did not specify that the server has to be on the court. The middle AND the server can't both go to the sub zone. The server does have to exchange with the libero first.

Thanks.

[mikegarrison]

Aug 19, 2014 20:37:33 GMT -5 @pedant said:

That's not what you described, and now you're saying two things:

1) Server runs on to the court (legal switch with libero, but illegal as described)
2) Subs with the MB (yes)
3) Runs back off the court again (illegal as described)

The server MUST sub, a regular sub before the 10 foot line, with the middle. The OTHER middle, if the libero is serving for her, can come off without being subbed. But the important thing here is that this is a sub (the serving sub who rotates to the front row and the middle) and COUNTS as one of their subs.

Yes, they could do this earlier as jgrout described. But it would still have to be a sub. THEN the libero can come in.

I'm not making this up, mikegarrison. This is the rule.

As far as I can tell, there is absolutely nothing different between what I described and what you described as being legal.

[mikegarrison]

Aug 19, 2014 20:48:47 GMT -5 springs said:

Libero is on the court for MH #1 and MH #9. She serves for #9.

When she gets to position 5, and her team wins the sideout rally, she runs off the court (in libero exchange zone) for MH #1 who is coming in to serve.

The coach decides he wants to sub #2 in to serve. MH #1 goes from libero exchange zone to the sub zone. #2 goes back and serves.

When the team loses the rally, the libero comes into the match for her. When libero gets to position 5, serve receive rally is won and she goes directly to position 1 to serve (for MH #9). Player #2 leaves the bench and exchanges with the libero, goes directly to the sub zone and MH #1 subs in.

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about. Perhaps I didn't use the correct technical wording that Ubetcha expected.

[Deleted]

I give up.

[thenetset]

Ugh. I like to think I know the game fairly well, but shizz like this, I just let it take care of itself. I would never be qualified to coach anyone anyway, so it doesn't really matter to me.

[mikegarrison]

Can somebody, anybody, please either let me know why I'm wrong or why Ubetcha thinks I'm wrong?

I don't mind learning things. I mind remaining ignorant because people think I don't care enough to learn things.

[Deleted]

Really, I would have gladly just given up.

The first thing you said was wrong. The second thing you said was correct, I guess, but not in the context of what you first said, which was how I read it. The "running on and off the court" part was what particularly threw me.

Anyhow, if we agree that the libero has to be involved in the exchange you describe, that there has to be an official sub, and that the "hand-thing" and "running" were just misleading (to me anyhow), I have no reason to believe you don't know exactly what has to happen.

Sorry to have wasted yours and everyone's time, but I am not hiding my pedantry. It's there in plain sight.