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Post by ncaavballguru on Aug 28, 2014 11:46:59 GMT -5
Except digs don't translate Into points. At the international level the game is determined by attacking, serving and blocking. Obviously you need to pass as well Dig translates into attacking opportunity and Japan team knows how to convert it! Besides, Japan always had problems with size and block! The tallest player on the team is almost 6'2" and none of Japanize players can touch above 9'8" on he block! So, Japanize block NEVER was a factor in slowing down High Flying offense of Brazil, Russia, USA, Germany, etc. Digs does meter in Japan women's volleyball! There are 5 Japanize players in top 25 diggers in Grand Prix this year with 3 of them in top 10, and Libero ranked #1! The best Japanize blocker sits at 15. Do the math and see what skill is more important for Japan women's volleyball to win games! You obviously don't get the point. Japan could dig like a backboard and finish a match with 10,000 digs. It still takes two more contacts after that dig (and both have to be good, effective contacts) in order to score a point.
Japan can dig everybody else in the world all day but if they don't transition off their digs and get a set and a kill, they aren't gonna be very good internationally.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 11:54:41 GMT -5
They're the #3 team in the world currently. They're doing pretty well.
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Post by sonofdogman on Aug 28, 2014 13:41:05 GMT -5
guru, unless your efficiencies go DOWN b/c you got more digs, then it is obvious that more digs=more attack opportunites=more scoring plays in offensive transition. i.e. more points scored. math is against your argument unless you can correlate more digs to lower attack efficiency
don't trust my logic cause I just make that stuff up...
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 28, 2014 13:51:32 GMT -5
guru, unless your efficiencies go DOWN b/c you got more digs, then it is obvious that more digs=more attack opportunites=more scoring plays in offensive transition. i.e. more points scored. math is against your argument unless you can correlate more digs to lower attack efficiency don't trust my logic cause I just make that stuff up... Both ideas are correct. Digs don't earn points by themselves, you still need kills (or opponent errors). But at the same time, failing to make a dig certainly prevents you from scoring a point. We know that teams with lots of digs usually have lower attack percentages, but cause and effect actually works the other way. If you don't kill the ball efficiently then your opponent gets to hit it back to you a lot, which can run up your dig totals. But that's not the same thing as saying that being good at digging causes you to be poor at attacking.
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pass
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Post by pass on Aug 28, 2014 13:59:20 GMT -5
Exactly...the more digs you have, the more opportunities to put the ball down. Plus, even an imperfect Japanese dig where the second ball is played by someone other than the setter will be a better ball than our fast/low outside set....sorry Glass.
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Post by ja on Aug 28, 2014 15:02:15 GMT -5
Dig translates into attacking opportunity and Japan team knows how to convert it! Besides, Japan always had problems with size and block! The tallest player on the team is almost 6'2" and none of Japanize players can touch above 9'8" on he block! So, Japanize block NEVER was a factor in slowing down High Flying offense of Brazil, Russia, USA, Germany, etc. Digs does meter in Japan women's volleyball! There are 5 Japanize players in top 25 diggers in Grand Prix this year with 3 of them in top 10, and Libero ranked #1! The best Japanize blocker sits at 15. Do the math and see what skill is more important for Japan women's volleyball to win games! You obviously don't get the point. Japan could dig like a backboard and finish a match with 10,000 digs. It still takes two more contacts after that dig (and both have to be good, effective contacts) in order to score a point.
Japan can dig everybody else in the world all day but if they don't transition off their digs and get a set and a kill, they aren't gonna be very good internationally.
Check FIVB ranking and look up Grand Prix standing for last 3-4 years before you trying to prove anything! Actually you did not post any facts to support your point of view. Facts usually speaks for themselves! Not words! And speaking of transition attack, Japan team does it really well!
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Post by ncaavballguru on Aug 28, 2014 15:32:39 GMT -5
Stats. Woop de friggin do. The only stat that matters is who won the match.
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Post by kokyu on Aug 28, 2014 15:41:11 GMT -5
They're the #3 team in the world currently. They're doing pretty well. And they just got silver in grand prix, 'guru's straight up unconscious troll.
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Post by sonofdogman on Aug 28, 2014 22:19:43 GMT -5
guru, unless your efficiencies go DOWN b/c you got more digs, then it is obvious that more digs=more attack opportunites=more scoring plays in offensive transition. i.e. more points scored. math is against your argument unless you can correlate more digs to lower attack efficiency don't trust my logic cause I just make that stuff up... Both ideas are correct. Digs don't earn points by themselves, you still need kills (or opponent errors). But at the same time, failing to make a dig certainly prevents you from scoring a point. We know that teams with lots of digs usually have lower attack percentages, but cause and effect actually works the other way. If you don't kill the ball efficiently then your opponent gets to hit it back to you a lot, which can run up your dig totals. But that's not the same thing as saying that being good at digging causes you to be poor at attacking. great points Mike. I really meant it when I said I just make stuff up. you gave more thorough view. but can I say that if the case is that a tactical change is what gains you an extra dig or two per set, then it should give more scoring opportunity. different than saying we dig many balls and have a correlating low attack pct. so no matter if I have high or low attack pct or high or low # of digs, tactical change which is defensive in nature brings more digs.
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Post by mikegarrison on Aug 29, 2014 0:56:41 GMT -5
Hmm. Let me try a VERY amateur attempt at a little game theory.
Let's say you get transition kills at X%, and your opponent gets transition kills at Y%.
So what happens if you don't make a dig? Your opponent gets a point, you get zero.
But what happens if you do make a dig? X% of the time, you get a point and your opponent gets 0. (1-X%) of the time, your opponent gets to hit it back. Y% of those times, it will be a point for your opponent.
So let's see, no dig is 0,1 Dig is X%,(1-X%)*Y%
So the total expected value of the dig is points for you: X%, points for your opponent (1-X%)*Y%-1
So the higher your kill%, the more valuable the dig is. But the higher your opponent's kill percentage, the less valuable the dig is to you (because there is more probability they will get a kill on their next attempt). If you are a poor attacking team and your opponent is a good attacking team, a dig is worth a lot less than if you are a good attacking team and your opponent is a poor attacking team.
I didn't include the effect of errors in there, but it seems like they should just go the same direction. So the bottom line is that while digs are always better than failing to get a dig, the digs you do get are worth more if your team attacks well, but they are worth less when playing against another team that attacks well.
That last bit seems a little counter-intuitive. It seems like every dig would be more precious against a team that kills well. But really, when playing a team with a really effective attack, unless your own kill rate is high enough all it does is give them another chance to kill on the next attack.
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Post by voleiazzurro on Aug 29, 2014 6:25:32 GMT -5
I think the title in itself is a bit misleading and incomplete. I think by reading responses it sounds like this topic could turn into exclusively reception-offensive discussion but I would also believe there should be discussion about other offensive elements in how Japan with this system attempts counteract taller teams and perform to their strengths.
I would ask the author about these other elements that have direct affect on this system.
1. The serve: how does serving strategy change when Japan is in two and three hitter rotations? In what outcome are they trying to create to counteract what opponent wants to do with their attack. (I think easy answer because lack of effective position 3 block) is to say serve in a way to eliminate first tempo in both situations if possible, but author could describe what strategies they use in serve against both types of rotations which put them highest chance to get into transition game (which of course is their strength). How much variation in server positioning is taken into consideration in specific rotations against specific teams when Japan is deciding on serving strategy?
2. How does defense positioning change when serve doesn’t interfere with opponent first tempo attack? How does this affect objective of the block?
3. If ball is defended what is Japan trying to accomplish in transition situation? How do the coverage systems promote how Japan wants to attack in these transition situations? Does there need to be such change in any of six rotations to coverage system more specific setting responsibilities and movement of remaining attackers? Also accounting that because pipe is use with high utility in this system you must re-arrange the coverage in this kind of attack.
4. What decisions are being trained to Japanese players in transition situations when they cannot score immediately on first transition chance? What tendencies does author conclude about these situations? How do attack decisions affect what opponent can do with first tempo attack when Japan is in two or three hitter rotations?
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Post by deacondive on Aug 29, 2014 7:51:29 GMT -5
They're the #3 team in the world currently. They're doing pretty well. And they just got silver in grand prix, 'guru's straight up unconscious troll. Still...if they weren't hosting they wouldn't have made the finals and they would have finished behind the US. Japan has played well, but lets not forget the advantage they get from hosting events.
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Post by ja on Aug 29, 2014 10:32:54 GMT -5
And they just got silver in grand prix, 'guru's straight up unconscious troll. Still...if they weren't hosting they wouldn't have made the finals and they would have finished behind the US. Japan has played well, but lets not forget the advantage they get from hosting events. Tell this to Brazil soccer team!
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Post by ncaavballguru on Aug 29, 2014 13:10:42 GMT -5
That last bit seems a little counter-intuitive. It seems like every dig would be more precious against a team that kills well. But really, when playing a team with a really effective attack, unless your own kill rate is high enough all it does is give them another chance to kill on the next attack. The difference between a casual fan vs. an informed fan/coach/technical coordinator, as it pertains to volleyball, is the depth at which they see the game.
Casual fans see the wow factor - straight down kills, impressive first-tempo attacks that hit the floor immediately, spectacular digs made one inch off the floor followed by an elaborate over-the-shoulder extension roll that takes the player 12 feet out of their base defensive position.
Informed fans/coaches/technical people see a deeper level of the game - how many times are we putting the other team into an out-of-system situation, what is the likelihood that the opposing setter will set their rightside hitting option in Row 3, etc.etc.etc.
Good analysis on the overall impact of digging/floor defense in the overall context of a match. I think the counter-intuitive nature of defensive plays that you postulate is spot on. At the lower levels of volleyball, defense is a factor, especially when teams like high school JV teams or club 14s can't really hit the ball hard - you get endless defensive rallys until someone gets lucky enough to hit one hard or to a funny spot on the floor, or endless defense until someone shanks a contact.
At the higher levels of the game, particularly the modern game, coaches look at how their team earns points and gives up points. The most efficient way to gain points is through a single contact - service ace or terminal block. That's why most teams will emphasize tougher serving and blocking over playing phenomenal defense.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 13:56:13 GMT -5
Digging directly translates into attack opportunities at the women's international level, which increases the likelihood of scoring a point, and if they aren't getting kills in transition, they're at least getting more block opportunities, which are point-scoring opportunities, and those can lead to even more point-scoring opportunities later in the rally. Getting your team more chances to attack the ball is incredibly important at this level. Ergo, digging is incredibly important.
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