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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 10:52:40 GMT -5
The middle has one option: outside. The libero, in theory anyhow, has two. Both are probably going to set high outside, but ...
Unless, of course, you are a fan of backsetting middles.
But seems like the deciding factor is always going to be who has the more reliable hands. In general, that will be a libero.
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Post by vbman100 on Sept 23, 2014 10:55:40 GMT -5
The problem (middle setting second ball) is on any hard driven ball that the setter digs, the middle who has just completed an explosive blocking move (right or left), must come down, identify that the setter dug the ball, locate the dug ball, then accurately set the ball to a pin. Coaches over time found that method to be way too difficult and unnecessary for the middle to have that responsibility. Many middles have never set a ball in their lives upon entering college. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the libero setting either. Wisconsin has an ideal situation with Carlini-Thomas and all coaches would love to have that. Personally, I still train the RS player to set the second ball as I find it's least problematic in the course of most situations. Isn't that situation for the middle similar to what the RS has to do? Complete a block move, come down, identify that the S dug the ball, locate the ball, and likely set to a pin? The only differences may be when they don't have to block, say on an opposing right side attack, or a middle attack. If they have not trained as a setter before, just transitioning from defense to locating the ball, timing it, and putting up a good set would be difficult for them as well. Often, left side hitters and liberos have spent a lot of time doing many different ball handling skills and are better prepared to set that 2nd contact with some precision.
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Post by memorybankrupt on Sept 23, 2014 10:57:00 GMT -5
The problem (middle setting second ball) is on any hard driven ball that the setter digs, the middle who has just completed an explosive blocking move (right or left), must come down, identify that the setter dug the ball, locate the dug ball, then accurately set the ball to a pin. Coaches over time found that method to be way too difficult and unnecessary for the middle to have that responsibility. Many middles have never set a ball in their lives upon entering college. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the libero setting either. Wisconsin has an ideal situation with Carlini-Thomas and all coaches would love to have that. Personally, I still train the RS player to set the second ball as I find it's least problematic in the course of most situations. RS setting is even more old school. Effective when it's a strong all around player with good hands. Getting to be a rarity these days. My favorite is when teams have an OPP with good hands that's a lefty. Love seeing that over on two option.
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Post by cvbc14 on Sept 23, 2014 11:01:37 GMT -5
It's always been pretty simple for me... I have a girl who I trust with every 1st ball contact (libero) and a girl who never is in serve receive and rarely plays defense (middle). Who do I want trying to run down a dig from a setter and then trying to deliver a ball that we can get some sort of a swing on? For me, it is the libero. The middles have a tremendous amount of responsibility as it is, and adding setting AND covering is something I don't want to do. They still have to cover the OH or Opp, but I'll leave that 2nd contact up to the libero.
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Post by memorybankrupt on Sept 23, 2014 11:50:29 GMT -5
The problem (middle setting second ball) is on any hard driven ball that the setter digs, the middle who has just completed an explosive blocking move (right or left), must come down, identify that the setter dug the ball, locate the dug ball, then accurately set the ball to a pin. Coaches over time found that method to be way too difficult and unnecessary for the middle to have that responsibility. Many middles have never set a ball in their lives upon entering college. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the libero setting either. Wisconsin has an ideal situation with Carlini-Thomas and all coaches would love to have that. Personally, I still train the RS player to set the second ball as I find it's least problematic in the course of most situations. Isn't that situation for the middle similar to what the RS has to do? Complete a block move, come down, identify that the S dug the ball, locate the ball, and likely set to a pin? The only differences may be when they don't have to block, say on an opposing right side attack, or a middle attack. If they have not trained as a setter before, just transitioning from defense to locating the ball, timing it, and putting up a good set would be difficult for them as well. Often, left side hitters and liberos have spent a lot of time doing many different ball handling skills and are better prepared to set that 2nd contact with some precision. Shouldn't be as difficult for the RS to set in transition even when blocking. Her positioning should be closest of all the front row blockers to where the "ideal" dig should land. If the dig ends up way off the 10 ft line, someone else would likely take the set.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 12:15:16 GMT -5
Libero setting is my ideal. They can be trained to set pace to either pin and have a pipe attacker. The threat of a pipe attacker can hold/slow the opposing middle. The ability to set pace to either pin also holds the blocker. Pin hitters can/should/are trained to hit in this scenario. Either way it obviously depends on your personnel.
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Post by volleytology on Sept 23, 2014 12:35:03 GMT -5
The problem (middle setting second ball) is on any hard driven ball that the setter digs, the middle who has just completed an explosive blocking move (right or left), must come down, identify that the setter dug the ball, locate the dug ball, then accurately set the ball to a pin. Coaches over time found that method to be way too difficult and unnecessary for the middle to have that responsibility. Many middles have never set a ball in their lives upon entering college. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the libero setting either. Wisconsin has an ideal situation with Carlini-Thomas and all coaches would love to have that. Personally, I still train the RS player to set the second ball as I find it's least problematic in the course of most situations. Isn't that situation for the middle similar to what the RS has to do? Complete a block move, come down, identify that the S dug the ball, locate the ball, and likely set to a pin? The only differences may be when they don't have to block, say on an opposing right side attack, or a middle attack. If they have not trained as a setter before, just transitioning from defense to locating the ball, timing it, and putting up a good set would be difficult for them as well. Often, left side hitters and liberos have spent a lot of time doing many different ball handling skills and are better prepared to set that 2nd contact with some precision. Absolutely not--couldn't be more different. A RS blocker is starting in basically a consistent, stationary position and as was said earlier, already in area where most balls are dug (which is why setters themselves play and block on the rightside of the court). Middles are making much more wide-ranging, lateral blocking moves, especially if they are blocking to the left. A middle setting the second ball after completing a long, explosive move right to block would be tough enough, but Can you imagine a middle moving left to block a fast slide--the hitter hits a ball crosscourt to the setter and then you're requiring your middle who is on the far side of the left side of the court, to come down, run towards the middle of the court and then set the ball in transition ? I don't think that's a smart or practical system...
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Post by memorybankrupt on Sept 23, 2014 12:53:22 GMT -5
Isn't that situation for the middle similar to what the RS has to do? Complete a block move, come down, identify that the S dug the ball, locate the ball, and likely set to a pin? The only differences may be when they don't have to block, say on an opposing right side attack, or a middle attack. If they have not trained as a setter before, just transitioning from defense to locating the ball, timing it, and putting up a good set would be difficult for them as well. Often, left side hitters and liberos have spent a lot of time doing many different ball handling skills and are better prepared to set that 2nd contact with some precision. Absolutely not--couldn't be more different. A RS blocker is starting in basically a consistent, stationary position and as was said earlier, already in area where most balls are dug (which is why setters themselves play and block on the rightside of the court). Middles are making much more wide-ranging, lateral blocking moves, especially if they are blocking to the left. A middle setting the second ball after completing a long, explosive move right to block would be tough enough, but Can you imagine a middle moving left to block a fast slide--the hitter hits a ball crosscourt to the setter and then you're requiring your middle who is on the far side of the left side of the court, to come down, run towards the middle of the court and then set the ball in transition ? I don't think that's a smart or practical system... I wouldn't go so far to say it's not a practical system. I think the MB setting could be fine (given the basic prereqs of good hands) and having a setter that can control the dig enough to direct the ball to the MB. The troublesome scenario of the MB blocking on the leftside wouldn't be problematic if the setter can direct the dig more towards the leftside of the court. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch since the setter would be already be facing that direction based on the incoming attack.
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Post by volleytology on Sept 23, 2014 12:58:18 GMT -5
Absolutely not--couldn't be more different. A RS blocker is starting in basically a consistent, stationary position and as was said earlier, already in area where most balls are dug (which is why setters themselves play and block on the rightside of the court). Middles are making much more wide-ranging, lateral blocking moves, especially if they are blocking to the left. A middle setting the second ball after completing a long, explosive move right to block would be tough enough, but Can you imagine a middle moving left to block a fast slide--the hitter hits a ball crosscourt to the setter and then you're requiring your middle who is on the far side of the left side of the court, to come down, run towards the middle of the court and then set the ball in transition ? I don't think that's a smart or practical system... I wouldn't go so far to say it's not a practical system. I think the MB setting could be fine (given the basic prereqs of good hands) and having a setter that can control the dig enough to direct the ball to the MB. The troublesome scenario of the MB blocking on the leftside wouldn't be problematic if the setter can direct the dig more towards the leftside of the court. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch since the setter would be already be facing that direction based on the incoming attack. So the setter would direct hard-driven dug balls to certain areas of the court based on where the middle has gone to block ? That seems like a lot of extra training time in practice just to make sure your middle is setting the second ball--I would say that's an impractical system for the VAST majority of most teams.
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Post by vbman100 on Sept 23, 2014 13:18:23 GMT -5
Isn't that situation for the middle similar to what the RS has to do? Complete a block move, come down, identify that the S dug the ball, locate the ball, and likely set to a pin? The only differences may be when they don't have to block, say on an opposing right side attack, or a middle attack. If they have not trained as a setter before, just transitioning from defense to locating the ball, timing it, and putting up a good set would be difficult for them as well. Often, left side hitters and liberos have spent a lot of time doing many different ball handling skills and are better prepared to set that 2nd contact with some precision. Absolutely not--couldn't be more different. A RS blocker is starting in basically a consistent, stationary position and as was said earlier, already in area where most balls are dug (which is why setters themselves play and block on the rightside of the court). Middles are making much more wide-ranging, lateral blocking moves, especially if they are blocking to the left. A middle setting the second ball after completing a long, explosive move right to block would be tough enough, but Can you imagine a middle moving left to block a fast slide--the hitter hits a ball crosscourt to the setter and then you're requiring your middle who is on the far side of the left side of the court, to come down, run towards the middle of the court and then set the ball in transition ? I don't think that's a smart or practical system... I like this thread and don't want it to turn into one of those threads where we go back and forth arguing, so I hope I can make my point and have a good discussion about the advantages and disadvantages. This is something that I have spent a lot of time thinking about, studying other teams, watching my teams, and so on. If the RS starts in stationary position, then ok, the transition to find the ball should be a little easier than for the MB. Even if you have a bunch block and the RS has to go to the pin, it is still maybe a little easier for them than the RS. But I have played both and watched teams use both systems and MBs can turn and set just as well. If you dig toward the middle of the court, and not the sideline, the MB is closer to the dig than the RS. Now in trans, you have both the RS and MB running toward the ball - the MB to be available to hit, and the RS running to set the ball. I don't think S block and play defense on the right side of the court because that is where most balls are dug to. I think it is because hitters are predominantly right handed in this sport (and in the world). If you had a team of left handers, you might dig and pass to the left. I said the differences (or advantages) for having your RS set the 2nd ball would be when the RS does not block and then they are to take the 2nd contact off the S dig, rather than asking the MB to set. What do you do when the S is front row, not blocking and digs the first ball? Then who sets? Wisconsin is a great example of how having your RS trained as a setter makes it much easier to run a great transition when you dig toward the RS blocker.
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Post by vballgrl on Sept 23, 2014 22:39:29 GMT -5
In looking over some recent box scores and looking back upon the last few years of OOS setting, if a middle has good hands why not have middle set the second ball over that of the libero. What are the major advantages to having left back take the second ball that having the middle doesn't provide? I think the libero setting is the preferred option when libero is middle back, not left back. Liberos are faster to the ball and have full visual contact on the ball throughout the play. MB have to land from a block then find/track the ball & get to it. I'm sure some are very good at it. Personnel & systems decisions.
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Post by donneyp on Sept 24, 2014 0:00:23 GMT -5
So many generalizations. There are a few factors you need to know before you decide what a given team should do.
Who on your team can set? Can their back up do it too, or do personnel changes mean you change your system? How do you block? What defense are you using most often? What do you want from your secondary offense?
In London Logan Tom came from middle back to set the 2nd ball. Minnesota used to run a true 6-2, Wisconsin has Thomas - so you have a RS who still has 2 options. Use them. At one point I had 2 middles who could set and most of the setters digs were cross court so they faced the opp and backset the 4 - so long as it was a good dig, they also had 2 options. Those middles left, our libero had been working on setting for 2 years and now she is doing a great job as the second setter, bump setting almost everything and also faces the RS of the court, which makes sense if the dig is coming from that direction.
They can all work if you have the personnel, systems and training time to make it work.
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Post by vbman100 on Sept 24, 2014 8:14:29 GMT -5
So many generalizations. There are a few factors you need to know before you decide what a given team should do. Who on your team can set? Can their back up do it too, or do personnel changes mean you change your system? How do you block? What defense are you using most often? What do you want from your secondary offense? In London Logan Tom came from middle back to set the 2nd ball. Minnesota used to run a true 6-2, Wisconsin has Thomas - so you have a RS who still has 2 options. Use them. At one point I had 2 middles who could set and most of the setters digs were cross court so they faced the opp and backset the 4 - so long as it was a good dig, they also had 2 options. Those middles left, our libero had been working on setting for 2 years and now she is doing a great job as the second setter, bump setting almost everything and also faces the RS of the court, which makes sense if the dig is coming from that direction. They can all work if you have the personnel, systems and training time to make it work. What happens when your libero is not on the court? Who takes 2nd ball then?
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Post by donneyp on Sept 24, 2014 8:31:10 GMT -5
So many generalizations. There are a few factors you need to know before you decide what a given team should do. Who on your team can set? Can their back up do it too, or do personnel changes mean you change your system? How do you block? What defense are you using most often? What do you want from your secondary offense? In London Logan Tom came from middle back to set the 2nd ball. Minnesota used to run a true 6-2, Wisconsin has Thomas - so you have a RS who still has 2 options. Use them. At one point I had 2 middles who could set and most of the setters digs were cross court so they faced the opp and backset the 4 - so long as it was a good dig, they also had 2 options. Those middles left, our libero had been working on setting for 2 years and now she is doing a great job as the second setter, bump setting almost everything and also faces the RS of the court, which makes sense if the dig is coming from that direction. They can all work if you have the personnel, systems and training time to make it work. What happens when your libero is not on the court? Who takes 2nd ball then? Great question. We use a serving sub for the M1 and most often that is my freshman setter.
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Post by nakedcrayon on Sept 24, 2014 9:12:34 GMT -5
If the middle can backset i dont mind OOS going to to middle rather than libero. It is entirely dependant in my mind based upon the personel. That said i have seen more and more two things from the libero taking the second ball. Many balls are not getting into the 5 and 5 area where typically most coaches want them to be but even more troubling is the outsides are not getting depper and behind the ball to get better attack angles if in fact the set is not in a good location
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