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Post by vbman100 on Sept 29, 2014 7:15:59 GMT -5
So what happens if the MS coaches have the players serve underhand? They are fired after the match? After the season? It sounds like they are not on board with what the HS coach wants and it may in their best interest for them to not be in the program.
The MS coaches should tell the HS coach "Well, then you show them how to do it properly, because whatever we are doing isn't working, and you want them to do this."
I also think that there are some tough underhand servers out there. Adults I've played with can frequently get an ace, or cause some problems with an underhand serve. I was taught underhand serving, and I think the first time I tried an overhand serve was sophomore year, and it went in. And serving is by far my best skill. Because I know how to throw a ball.
It is also a disservice to the 11 other players out there if you cannot put a serve in play. Especially at the MS level. It is about contacts and touches and situations. If you can't play a rally nearly half the time, because 1 team misses almost all of their serves, what are the teams getting out of the match?
I think the HS coach is a little off on this one, and the MS coaches need to recognize that they could probably have the kids underhand serve. If they lose their job coaching MS volleyball, so what. But the MS coaches need to stand up for what they believe and tell the HS coach how they feel, not the parents and players and everyone else.
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Post by newenglander on Sept 29, 2014 7:36:05 GMT -5
It's foolish to require them to serve overhand if they have never served the ball over the net ever. Here's what I'd suggest: - no underhand serving at practice - if a player has never served the ball over the net overhand in practice, don't make them do it in the game - if a player can serve it overhand (and over) but very inconsistently, tell them they have to serve overhand on their first attempt each set (and until they miss if they get it over). If they are successful in their first term of service (of getting 1 over), then they need to go overhand on their next term of service too.
Nobody wants to lose, but there's some middle ground between preparing them for the future and allowing them some success. This strategy doesn't build confidence, more likely shortens the career of some of the girls and makes them dislike the game.
They need to play for that team, that year... not the future. Otherwise your high school players should only play for college and your collegiate players should only play to make the national team.
Let me add this in too... the high school coaches aren't there every day and don't see the girls. They are making the MS coaches suffer the consequences of their decisions.
I've used the strategy above and had a girl in 9th grade that didn't serve it over in a game until the last match of the season (the rest of the girls stormed the court and confused the heck out of the other team and the ref, it was the middle of the game). Her sophomore year she was the best server on the JV team and served rockets (she just got the timing down).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 7:47:44 GMT -5
I'm taking door #3. It's okay for the HS coach to have goals for the feeder programs. It's okay for the HS coach to say how to accomplish those goals. It is not okay to bring this matter up to the BOE. This is between the volleyball coaches. The MS coaches need to talk to the HS coach and either say it isn't working or that they need more guidance to accomplish these goals. I'm sure the HS coach wants kids to come back for more volleyball via fun, but the HS coach wants to stay competitive in the long run. I think your best bet is to mediate a discussion with the coaches involved instead of bringing in another outside party and creating more resentment. If the coaches have the best interests of the program in mind, I think a meaningful and deliberate solution can be reached. Somewhere along the lines of, continue working on good technique, and it's okay to fail as long as it's done right during training, and a different strategy for matches. The roundhouse or T-Serves are excellent alternatives that rely on torque although you can serve a tough underhand ball if it floats. From the posts regarding the situation this sounds like a control struggle where the MS coaches would like a little more autonomy, and the HS coach wants to dictate policy. If the program is to succeed (read at all levels) then a compromise is to be had. Trust in the MS coaches to mentor and develop young players. Trust in the HS coach to mentor the MS coaches and set realistic goals and policies for the players. It's a two way street to get better and keep kids in your program.
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Post by bigfan on Sept 29, 2014 14:05:33 GMT -5
So what happens if the MS coaches have the players serve underhand? They are fired after the match? After the season? It sounds like they are not on board with what the HS coach wants and The MS coaches should tell the HS coach "Well, then you show them how to do it properly, because whatever we are doing isn't working, and you want them to do this." LOL! "It may in their best interest for them to not be in the program." I would quit as a MS coach in a heart beat. Let these CHILDREN HAVE FUN!
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Post by brickwall on Sept 29, 2014 14:43:00 GMT -5
So what happens if the MS coaches have the players serve underhand? They are fired after the match? After the season? It sounds like they are not on board with what the HS coach wants and The MS coaches should tell the HS coach "Well, then you show them how to do it properly, because whatever we are doing isn't working, and you want them to do this." LOL! "It may in their best interest for them to not be in the program." I would quit as a MS coach in a heart beat. Let these CHILDREN HAVE FUN! When I first started on with the young girls,, our high school coach told me, "teach them to love the game." I have kept every one of my players the last 4 years. I think teaching them to love the game is the best thing coaches can do for a program. Kids who love the game seek out improvement and additional playing opportunities, all on their own. It makes them better, it makes the whole program better.
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Post by chancelucky on Sept 29, 2014 14:43:30 GMT -5
If half or more of the points in a middle school match consist of a single contact, the server either missing serve or getting an ace, I would suggest that no one's learning anything and I doubt that any of the players are having any fun unless they happen to be the ones who can serve overhand.
It makes me think of 6th grade basketball games where the final score winds up being 2-0. Yes, I saw one of those once.
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Post by oshkoshdadmjs on Sept 29, 2014 14:48:53 GMT -5
I think that everyone is kind of overlooking the fact that the poster has said the girls range from 5th to 8th grade. I've seen 11s and 12s play, it can be very rough. I would have no problem letting them underhand serve, but if a 14s player wanted to underhand serve I probably wouldn't allow it. Either way, some deference should be given to the middle school coaches who are actually in the gym in this situation.
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Post by dgo on Sept 30, 2014 9:12:39 GMT -5
I think this is an interesting question that brings out a bit of a contradiction in how I liked to coach younger kids (i.e., 4th - 6th grade). I really encouraged them to serve overhand. We worked on it a lot in practice and it was certainly a goal. We had a pretty good track record of improvement over the course of seasons with more and more kids trying (and succeeding) to serve overhand as the season progressed. But, I didn't require it in matches, particularly for kids who never made their serves in practice. If they wanted to try, I'd let them, even if they never made them.
I was generally less flexible on the pass-set-spike rule. That was always the goal, and even if we often (usually) failed miserably, we kept that as the goal. In my (limited) experience, the kids never seemed to take that as personally as missing their own serves. So, I didn't mind requiring the kids to do something that in all likelihood would fail because they generally viewed it as a team failure, and not personal. I always felt strongly that we should strive to play "real" volleyball. I always told the kids that in another year or two they would be beating the teams that were winning by hitting the first ball over every time.
Perhaps there really is no meaningful difference between requiring overhand serving when a kid can't execute and requiring pass-set-spike when the team can't execute, but I always tried to make that distinction.
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Post by vbman100 on Sept 30, 2014 9:49:57 GMT -5
There is just something about getting an overhand serve over for the first time for a kid, and their teammates. I don't know what it is. It is always amazing to see the response a kid or teammate or parent or coach has when a kid who has been struggling to get a serve over the net finally gets one in.
It is like it defines who they are or how good they are. And I think there is some truth to that. The ones who are willing to try new serves are the ones who are not afraid to try new things in life. The ones who only want to rip it and don't like hitting a short serve are the ones who go full speed in life and never play safe.
And I have rarely seen a good all-around player whom is a poor server.
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Post by dunninla on Sept 30, 2014 11:08:18 GMT -5
This may surprise a lot of people, but I was watching a an AVP pro match about eight or ten weeks ago and one of the players threw in an underhand serve. Can't remember the reason, but the announcers thought it quite amusing. Does nobody remember Singin Smith's famous sky ball serves? An underhand serve can be very effective mixed in at unexpected times.
As many have pointed out, it is a question of physical development. If a player is not physically capable of placing an overhand serve into the court at least two times out of three, it reduces the game into something not recognizable as volleyball. If the kids don't enjoy playing because the game is so frustrating because of failed serves, even those players who could develop might leave the sport because it sucks to play it like that.
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Post by junior1 on Sept 30, 2014 12:23:04 GMT -5
Kinda wonder about this a bit. Is this head coach at the middle school practices? Are the middle school coaches competent teachers of volleyball? Can they teach mechanics of throwing and serving? Have coached at that level and have found that fear reinforces fear. Sometimes having a mandate takes away the fear of attempting a skill, a free opportunity if you will. If young girls constantly fail, that is not good, so perhaps a side arm serve is okay? Know too, that in the future, kids at the school will learn what is expected and more learning will occur during the off season. Remember a story I once heard from Debbie Green, when as a youngun see could not get the overhand serve over the net, became a real annoyance for her as a youngster, until she mastered it and felt a great accomplishment. We constantly talk about being in uncomfortable situations to best learn how to perform. I wonder how many of these kids can serve overhand in practice, too. Some just get tight when the game is on the line.
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Post by cvbc14 on Sept 30, 2014 15:09:55 GMT -5
would we be having this same conversation if this was a boys team? or would parents be telling their boys "get tougher, learn the skill, and get better". seems to me like we're doing a lot of protecting princesses.
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Post by s0uthie on Sept 30, 2014 16:30:13 GMT -5
3 observations here. Just going to point out that several people have assumed the coaching is bad. The OP didn't address how they were training the serve. It didn't address the level of involvement or even awareness of the HS coach. There could be a lot of easy solutions. This could be as simple as asking the HS coach to bring the varsity team down for a day so the middle school kids get individual attention of a high school girl. I don't know the particulars but from the broad strokes I think going to the school board with this is silly. For anyone who thinks overhand serving as a skill is too advanced for 12-14 year olds, I offer this as evidence to the contrary. For the original poster I'll offer this link to do with what you choose. If nothing else, show your daughter something new to try and maybe she can be the 3rd player to serve over the net www.carolinaregionvb.org/overhandserves/I read the linked serving advice. The follow-up article advocates for a down and then back, windmill-style armswing as correct serving technique. I've read it three times and can't come up with another interpretation. Did you link us to a parody site by mistake?
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Post by pogoball on Sept 30, 2014 22:28:25 GMT -5
Many girls also do much better hitting the ball over on one contact so I'm going to start coaching that. After all, it works and wins a lot of games and that is all I care about...middle school championships. No, hitting the ball over on the first contact doesn't win even middle school championships. We don't have high level middle school volleyball, but the teams that win the championships still must control and hit the ball on a significant majority of plays. I will add, too, the schools that win middle school championships are the schools that usually have the highest participation, get the best athletes and have the highest skill level because the girls love to play on their teams. Not coincidentally, those schools feed the best high school programs. Get kids excited about the sport. Watch as those kids find all the local camps and club programs as an opportunity to play and get better because it's fun. Watch as those kids get other kids to play. Grow your program with enthusiasm. Middle school/tween girls are mostly motivated by their peers to participate. Make it fun and watch them come play.
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Post by vbman100 on Oct 1, 2014 6:57:47 GMT -5
This may surprise a lot of people, but I was watching a an AVP pro match about eight or ten weeks ago and one of the players threw in an underhand serve. Can't remember the reason, but the announcers thought it quite amusing. Does nobody remember Singin Smith's famous sky ball serves? An underhand serve can be very effective mixed in at unexpected times. As many have pointed out, it is a question of physical development. If a player is not physically capable of placing an overhand serve into the court at least two times out of three, it reduces the game into something not recognizable as volleyball. If the kids don't enjoy playing because the game is so frustrating because of failed serves, even those players who could develop might leave the sport because it sucks to play it like that. These kids are not playing outdoors. The sun and wind and sky have an effect that does not apply indoors. However, I do think there can be effective indoor underhand servers, I have played against a few. But if some of these kids tried a skyball, it would hit the rafters and they would lose the point anyway.
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