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Post by JB Southpaw on Oct 14, 2014 10:42:09 GMT -5
for what it's worth:
In 2013 Nick was 24-12 with Theo on the AVP. (1st full year on AVP) In 2014 Nick was 23-12 with Ryan on the AVP. (2nd full year on AVP)
On the AVP Todd was 18-13 with Ryan in 13, and 18-14 with Theo this year.
The big difference was FIVB. Tood and Ryan 2013 12-25 (Ryan's 1st full year on FIVB) Todd and Theo 2014 13-11 (Theo's 1st full year on FIVB)
Both players are at the same stage in their Beach career, 2nd full time year. Theo is only a full year younger than Ryan.
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Post by butteryhands on Oct 14, 2014 15:15:55 GMT -5
At this stage, Nick is vastly better than Todd. So I agree, Nick needs to make this move if he wants any chance at the Olympics.
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Post by guest2 on Oct 14, 2014 16:25:23 GMT -5
Interesting numbers. The AVP ones may be a little skewed because of Ryan's injury this year, but Todd was younger last.
The FIVB ones are a little skewed because Todd/Theo played fewer events and lost in some country quota stuff if I remember correctly, but there definitely does not seem to be the gap between Ryan/Theo I was thinking of. I do think Ryan has much greater upside due to his improving, but still pretty awful skills.
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Post by crawdaddy on Oct 14, 2014 16:45:12 GMT -5
for what it's worth: In 2013 Nick was 24-12 with Theo on the AVP. (1st full year on AVP) In 2014 Nick was 23-12 with Ryan on the AVP. (2nd full year on AVP) On the AVP Todd was 18-13 with Ryan in 13, and 18-14 with Theo this year. The big difference was FIVB. Tood and Ryan 2013 12-25 (Ryan's 1st full year on FIVB) Todd and Theo 2014 13-11 (Theo's 1st full year on FIVB) Both players are at the same stage in their Beach career, 2nd full time year. Theo is only a full year younger than Ryan. Interesting. Also have to take into consideration the downslope in Todd's career. The 2013 Todd is better than the 2014 version so that could affect this comparison. Age is a bitch. I lean slightly toward Theo in this debate, so agree with Nick's move. But Avatar is definitely improving.
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Post by guest2 on Oct 14, 2014 16:59:22 GMT -5
It is a big leap of faith to believe Tri is able to make the jump to full time back defender. Not to mention to do it well enough to be a world class team. I also don't necessarily agree that Ryan is a better player than Theo. Theo's overall game is way more consistent and he gets just as many blocks. In the modern game defense is not that difficult. Maybe if you are on one of those teams with a 6'3 blocker, but playing behind a Doherty is fairly simple. Look at Casey, who is no great shakes as a defender. Gibb has fallen off some, but he is a solid blocker and Casey does ok. Tri would not get to all the balls Lucena does, but given the way he sides out when he is playing well, he doesnt have to.
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Oct 14, 2014 17:05:25 GMT -5
I know I'm in the minority of being a fan of Todd's, I do hope he takes on a new project. Someone young like Page, or Tony C. Would like to hear GLM thoughts on player fits.but the bigger question is where Ryan goes? He is clearly in the top 4 bigs (Phil, Jake & bourne) Jennings would be the established player, but not sure how much he wants to go international with the kids. Mayer isn't going anywhere. I'd like him to get a bigger def. player, I think having a player with a larger hitting window (similar to what Casey did for him) takes some of the pressure off his setting. I think young players will be lining up to play with him. Dude, I'm so far out of the loop these days it isn't even funny. Work, baby, life blah blah - I only saw one AVP and one FIVB tournament all last season. I did hear about Nick hooking up with Theo, but other than that I have no idea whats happening. At any rate, Ciarelli and Robbie Page are interesting names to bring up. But I think Ciarelli is going to focus on making the 2016 indoor Olympic roster (although you never know with him), and Page signed a pretty good contract to play indoor in Italy, so I personally wouldn't see either of them in the mix any time soon. I would be mildly surprised to see any changes in the Rosie/Phil, Tri/John, and CPatt/Jake partnerships at the beginning of next season. But again, see above about "out of the loop."
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Post by tinman2 on Oct 14, 2014 21:02:59 GMT -5
Interesting numbers. The AVP ones may be a little skewed because of Ryan's injury this year, but Todd was younger last. The FIVB ones are a little skewed because Todd/Theo played fewer events and lost in some country quota stuff if I remember correctly, but there definitely does not seem to be the gap between Ryan/Theo I was thinking of. I do think Ryan has much greater upside due to his improving, but still pretty awful skills. I believe the numbers are also skewed, because of Phil's injury...much deeper field with Phil/Rosie in the tournaments.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Oct 15, 2014 6:49:44 GMT -5
I know I'm in the minority of being a fan of Todd's, I do hope he takes on a new project. Someone young like Page, or Tony C. Would like to hear GLM thoughts on player fits.but the bigger question is where Ryan goes? He is clearly in the top 4 bigs (Phil, Jake & bourne) Jennings would be the established player, but not sure how much he wants to go international with the kids. Mayer isn't going anywhere. I'd like him to get a bigger def. player, I think having a player with a larger hitting window (similar to what Casey did for him) takes some of the pressure off his setting. I think young players will be lining up to play with him. Dude, I'm so far out of the loop these days it isn't even funny. Work, baby, life blah blah - I only saw one AVP and one FIVB tournament all last season. I did hear about Nick hooking up with Theo, but other than that I have no idea whats happening. At any rate, Ciarelli and Robbie Page are interesting names to bring up. But I think Ciarelli is going to focus on making the 2016 indoor Olympic roster (although you never know with him), and Page signed a pretty good contract to play indoor in Italy, so I personally wouldn't see either of them in the mix any time soon. I would be mildly surprised to see any changes in the Rosie/Phil, Tri/John, and CPatt/Jake partnerships at the beginning of next season. But again, see above about "out of the loop." Congrats on the baby. I wonder with Ciarelli and the Nat. team. IF Reed Priddy comes back, that would knock him down the line a bit more. I know these guys can make more indoor, but if T-Rog. came calling with guaranteed Main draw maybe he could tempt one of them to stay for a year. An Idea I stated on a different thread before, would be for USAV to "hire" some of these vets to play with these pipeline younger players domestically and in the NORCECAs.
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Post by volleyballer4life on Oct 15, 2014 12:08:34 GMT -5
for what it's worth: In 2013 Nick was 24-12 with Theo on the AVP. (1st full year on AVP) In 2014 Nick was 23-12 with Ryan on the AVP. (2nd full year on AVP) On the AVP Todd was 18-13 with Ryan in 13, and 18-14 with Theo this year. The big difference was FIVB. Tood and Ryan 2013 12-25 (Ryan's 1st full year on FIVB) Todd and Theo 2014 13-11 (Theo's 1st full year on FIVB) Both players are at the same stage in their Beach career, 2nd full time year. Theo is only a full year younger than Ryan. I'm staying on the fence here, but I think if we're going to use this argument, other things should be addressed. My question is this: Should the actual experience of playing volleyball be taken into consideration? Who has the higher ceiling? I admittedly don't know too much about Theo, his work ethic, or his fire towards beach volleyball. While he has only done two years of beach full-time on his resume, he's had a pretty storied indoor career. He came into the beach with years of reps/touches. Ryan came into the beach scene with SUCH little volleyball experience - I know people will use his height almost as a slight against him, but the guy has been pretty outspoken on his love for the sport and his relentless passion towards working on becoming one of the best. If he's come so far so quickly, is it possible that his ceiling is a little higher as he's only going to get better with more reps? Unless I'm mistaken, Doherty MAYBE spent one year of playing amateur ball before coming straight to the pro events. I suppose you can't wait for him to reach it if you're eyeing 2016 and next year being a qualification year, but I feel like that's something I'd be considering when comparing the two. Thoughts?
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Post by crawdaddy on Oct 15, 2014 12:36:47 GMT -5
I think what you say volleyballer4life has truth to it. Avatar's ceiling hasn't been hit both because of his inexperience and because of his height. That said, Nick's calculation has to be who will give him the best chance to qualify for Rio and that qualification process begins in the coming season. He doesn't have time to wait for the continued development of Ryan's game. I feel for Avatar, as has been said on this board several times, the drop off from the top four defenders (Rosie, Patterson, Hyden, and Nick) is pretty big.
I agree with Geddy that it would surprise me if any of the top teams split before next season.
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Oct 15, 2014 14:03:56 GMT -5
Dude, I'm so far out of the loop these days it isn't even funny. Work, baby, life blah blah - I only saw one AVP and one FIVB tournament all last season. I did hear about Nick hooking up with Theo, but other than that I have no idea whats happening. At any rate, Ciarelli and Robbie Page are interesting names to bring up. But I think Ciarelli is going to focus on making the 2016 indoor Olympic roster (although you never know with him), and Page signed a pretty good contract to play indoor in Italy, so I personally wouldn't see either of them in the mix any time soon. I would be mildly surprised to see any changes in the Rosie/Phil, Tri/John, and CPatt/Jake partnerships at the beginning of next season. But again, see above about "out of the loop." Congrats on the baby. I wonder with Ciarelli and the Nat. team. IF Reed Priddy comes back, that would knock him down the line a bit more. I know these guys can make more indoor, but if T-Rog. came calling with guaranteed Main draw maybe he could tempt one of them to stay for a year. An Idea I stated on a different thread before, would be for USAV to "hire" some of these vets to play with these pipeline younger players domestically and in the NORCECAs. Well, Reid is 37 and coming off of a torn ACL. He's a really good guy, and has been a fantastic player for the US, but I don't know if he's realistically in the picture going forward. I don't think Tony would contemplate coming to beach if someone like Todd called him. I think Ciarelli would much rather play behind a block or split. Here's my bound-to-be-wrong prediction: Ciarelli plays indoor through Rio, then switches to beach (when he'll still only be 26) to make a run for the 2020 Olympics with Tri Bourne. The beach game could really use Ciarelli - he's a phenomenal player with the 2nd hardest serve I've ever seen (behind - barely - "Bazooka" Kolodinsky from a few years ago), and is a fiery guy.
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Post by butteryhands on Oct 15, 2014 16:31:03 GMT -5
I would like to see Tony qualify consistently for main draw events before we can start considering him for the olympics.
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Post by Semp12 on Oct 17, 2014 12:13:35 GMT -5
It will be an interesting off-season. The big question is, will Ryan commit to anyone outside of the top 4 defenders, or wait it out a bit to see if anyone does give him a ring? His in-system setting has definitely improved vastly, and I would not say is a weakness any longer.
To me, Theo probably can be more consistent with finishes, but I am not sure he has the ability to get hot and win FIVB tournaments, let alone the Olympics.
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