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Post by tomclen on Oct 27, 2014 17:01:31 GMT -5
Thanks, I'm going to not pay my cable bill.
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Post by jayj79 on Oct 27, 2014 19:45:30 GMT -5
so this system basically just awards a standings point for every set won, correct?
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 27, 2014 21:05:30 GMT -5
so this system basically just awards a standings point for every set won, correct? No. Winning 3 sets only gets you two points if you win 3-2, and winning 2 sets only gets you one point. Winning one set gets you no points.
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Post by austintatious on Oct 27, 2014 23:24:21 GMT -5
We keep forgetting the people in charge. The same group that has 15 subs and would love 18. The NCAA. The argument for more subs is to justify (right or wrong) large rosters where more players can participate. The 25-9, 25-10 scenario where you can sub all you want in sets 3 and 4 comfortably and keep the non-starters (and mom and dad) happy. Going to the point system puts the onus on keep pounding the rock, no mercy.
NCAA - No Chance At All.
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Post by jayj79 on Oct 28, 2014 4:21:34 GMT -5
We keep forgetting the people in charge. The same group that has 15 subs and would love 18. The NCAA. The argument for more subs is to justify (right or wrong) large rosters where more players can participate. The 25-9, 25-10 scenario where you can sub all you want in sets 3 and 4 comfortably and keep the non-starters (and mom and dad) happy. Going to the point system puts the onus on keep pounding the rock, no mercy. that argument would be more valid if the point system was based on overall points scored but not so much when based on sets won. Yes, coaches might sub in more "non starters" when they get big leads in a set, which might lead to winning the set by 5 instead of 10, but at least in the matches I've watched, I don't recall seeing a team lose a set (let alone two) due to subbing in those "non starters"
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Oct 28, 2014 13:17:54 GMT -5
I don't like the system. I'll show you why.
In the World Championships, four teams were fighting for three spots in the second round in Pool E.
With two matches left, here were the standings by record China 5-0 Dominican Republic 5-0 Italy 4-1 Japan 3-2
But in points, the standings were China (14 pts), Italy (13pts), Dominican Republic (11pts), Japan (8pts).
China / DR were going 5 sets. I was concerned the following scenario would happen with only three important other matches left:
Dominicans beat China 3-2 (2 points DOM 1 China) Japan beats Italy 3-1 (3 points JPN) Japan beats Dominicans (3 points JPN) Italy beats China 3-1 (3 points Italy) (an Italy 3-2 win would also be good enough for my example)
If that scenario played out here are the standings by record Dominicana (6-1) China (5-2) Italy (5-2) Japan (5-2)
But according to the FIVB, These are the point standings. 1. Italy (5-2) 16 points 2. China (5-2) 14 points 3. Japan (5-2) 14 points 4. Dominicana (6-1) 13 points
Dominicans would not have advanced to the third round had this scenario played out, despite having one less loss and beating two of the three teams above them.
Luckily, this didn't happen. Italy beat Japan. That enough sent the Dominicans through to the next round. Had that not happened, the Japan/DR result may have been different because when the match played the top three had already been determined.
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Post by audiovol on Oct 28, 2014 13:26:41 GMT -5
I guess the thing is and I believe it was shown even at the World Championships for Men and Women that a team can lose in 5 by 2 points sometimes on missed calls or just other things that don't necessarily reflect the best volleyball played. This scoring system seems to level out some of those oddities where things just tip the balance a bit and make the difference between a W or L when it could have or at times, should have gone the other way. I think anyone who has coached or played for awhile has been on both ends of those types of matches. In the end a matter of preference and philosophy as many have stated.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Oct 28, 2014 13:51:07 GMT -5
I guess the thing is and I believe it was shown even at the World Championships for Men and Women that a team can lose in 5 by 2 points sometimes on missed calls or just other things that don't necessarily reflect the best volleyball played. This scoring system seems to level out some of those oddities where things just tip the balance a bit and make the difference between a W or L when it could have or at times, should have gone the other way. I think anyone who has coached or played for awhile has been on both ends of those types of matches. In the end a matter of preference and philosophy as many have stated. So you would advocate advancing three (5-2) teams over a 6-1 team? I'm not sure I could ever find a scenario in which it is. And with the challenges, there are very few missed calls. Every ball in or out is called correctly. The only issue was missed block touches, or calling a touch when it didn't happen..
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 28, 2014 14:29:10 GMT -5
You guys are all looking at this backwards. You are saying to yourselves, "the goal of playing is to win matches, so the win-loss record should be the way a team is measured." And that's fair, IF the goal of playing is to win matches.
But if the goal of playing is to win FIVB points, then the FIVB point system is more appropriate than the match W-L record. Or to take it a step further, if the goal of playing in round 1 is to move to round 2, and the way that is measured is by FIVB points, then you should play to win FIVB points more than playing to win the match. The result is that when a team is up 2-1, the fourth set is more important compared to the fifth set. Winning the 4th set gains a team one or two points, and winning the fifth set gains a team another point. Winning 2 out 3 of the first two sets also gains a team a point.
In the NCAA, for some teams the goal is to make it into the tournament. Winning matches is secondary to this. If that means you schedule some matches you expect to lose in order to help your RPI, then that's what you do. For other teams the tournament is a given, and their goals might be to win their conference and to win a seed.
The point is that what you use to measure success should depend on what your goals are. (And vice versa, if the way that you measure success is out of your control, then your goals should be set to maximize that measurement.)
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Post by audiovol on Oct 28, 2014 14:29:54 GMT -5
Yeah that's a tough scenario and probably as rare as the calls swaying the outcomes or rarer.
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Post by s0uthie on Oct 28, 2014 15:42:35 GMT -5
In the NCAA, for some teams the goal is to make it into the tournament. Winning matches is secondary to this. If that means you schedule some matches you expect to lose in order to help your RPI, then that's what you do. For other teams the tournament is a given, and their goals might be to win their conference and to win a seed. This.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Oct 28, 2014 16:30:12 GMT -5
You guys are all looking at this backwards. You are saying to yourselves, "the goal of playing is to win matches, so the win-loss record should be the way a team is measured." And that's fair, IF the goal of playing is to win matches. But if the goal of playing is to win FIVB points, then the FIVB point system is more appropriate than the match W-L record. No i'm not looking at it backwards. I'm saying the FIVB approach is wrong. The FIVB point system is NOT more appropriate than match W-L record, but that's my opinion. The goal is to win a match in sports, always, at least for me. Say a team is up 2-1, they should be able to rest some of their starters in the 4th set in preparation for the 5th set. Lang Ping did this a few times. But with the FIVB point system, someone may think twice. Paul Sunderland agrees with me, he forcefully opposed it on several broadcasts.
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 28, 2014 16:31:02 GMT -5
You guys are all looking at this backwards. You are saying to yourselves, "the goal of playing is to win matches, so the win-loss record should be the way a team is measured." And that's fair, IF the goal of playing is to win matches. But if the goal of playing is to win FIVB points, then the FIVB point system is more appropriate than the match W-L record. No i'm not looking at it backwards. I'm saying the FIVB approach is wrong. The FIVB point system is NOT more important than match W-L rec It is if you want to advance to the next round of a FIVB competition!
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Oct 28, 2014 16:35:04 GMT -5
No i'm not looking at it backwards. I'm saying the FIVB approach is wrong. The FIVB point system is NOT more important than match W-L rec It is if you want to advance to the next round of a FIVB competition! Exactly, that's why i'm disagreeing with the system. My post had got cut off, i edited it all in now. Let me ask if you were in charge what would you determine for the top 3? The points system or match W-L?
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Post by mikegarrison on Oct 28, 2014 16:45:31 GMT -5
It is if you want to advance to the next round of a FIVB competition! Exactly, that's why i'm disagreeing with the system. My post had got cut off, i edited it all in now. Let me ask if you were in charge what would you determine for the top 3? The points system or match W-L? Probably W-L. But I would not break the teams up into such small groups, either. Obviously FIVB thinks it is exciting that in every round you often don't know who will be advancing until the last match is played, and the format is structured that way to make it happen.
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