|
Post by bayarea on Oct 29, 2014 23:45:22 GMT -5
When trying to make sure our players were eligible for a 2-man beach volleyball championship during the CIF season, we relied on this rule:
The following exceptions (to 600) apply: A. If the outside team has half or more of the team members as stated in the National Federation rules book for that sport, it shall be considered the same sport. Examples: three on three basketball---outside team competition prohibited; two on two volleyball---outside team competition permitted.
CIF is making their case that 2-person beach volleyball is a separate sport, but 4-person beach volleyball, even when played co-ed, in costume, and without referees, is the same sport. It's really a sad situation.
|
|
|
Post by volleyguy on Oct 29, 2014 23:46:23 GMT -5
So if the team decided to run a 10 K together this Sunday, they'd be punished by the CIF in their high school sport? Really? How about on a golf course in a charity golf tournament? So the CIF regulates what students can and can't do athletically on weekends? Hmm. Where are the attorneys? And so who created this amateuristic rule and for what reason? Technically, the CIF, like the NCAA, regulates ELIGIBILITY--based on what the athletes do, including week-ends.
|
|
|
Post by volleyguy on Oct 29, 2014 23:54:24 GMT -5
When trying to make sure our players were eligible for a 2-man beach volleyball championship during the CIF season, we relied on this rule: The following exceptions (to 600) apply: A. If the outside team has half or more of the team members as stated in the National Federation rules book for that sport, it shall be considered the same sport. Examples: three on three basketball---outside team competition prohibited; two on two volleyball---outside team competition permitted. CIF is making their case that 2-person beach volleyball is a separate sport, but 4-person beach volleyball, even when played co-ed, in costume, and without referees, is the same sport. It's really a sad situation. It appears that what they are saying is that for volleyball, three or more participants is prohibited for any other sport, including sand vb (because indoor vb is six, and three or more is half or more of 6). Two person beach tourneys are ok.
|
|
|
Post by bayarea on Oct 30, 2014 1:00:33 GMT -5
Yes, CIF has ruled that 2 man beach volleyball is OK and 4 person is not. However, if you look at the context of this event...a fun coed fundraiser event in costumes, with no referees, and benefiting a cause, it seems very petty to enforce this rule as a "tournament". And to disqualify some top players who participated after considering that they had asked multiple times if this event was OK, and were told that it was not a violation... Well, the CIF has never won a popularity contest.
|
|
|
Post by iandyer on Oct 30, 2014 2:44:12 GMT -5
I’m a parent/coach/club director who is directly involved. At Saddleback Valley Christian, I am head coach of the girls beach volleyball team, co-head coach of the boys beach volleyball team, and assistant coach of the boys indoor volleyball team. I'm co-founder of American Beach Volleyball Club. 5 of my children played in the 4man. My 2 daughters were suspended for playing. One is suspended for 4 matches and one for 2 matches.
Multiple cautious parents each contacted CIF in advance to specifically ask if their kids could play in the 4man. They were each separately told that CIF does not consider beach volleyball to be a CIF sport, and since it is not the same sport as indoor volleyball, Rule 600 doesn’t apply and the athletes were free to play. CIF clearly told each caller that “CIF does not consider beach volleyball to be a CIF sport.” The athletes justifiably relied on those clear statements and played. Now, CIF has suspended the 26 (or more) girls volleyball athletes for 2 to 4 games, simply because those athletes relied on what CIF specifically told them.
The most important point is not the rule interpretation. We may disagree with their interpretation, but bottom line, they have the right to interpret their own rules.
The most important point is that they DID interpret the rules, and told that interpretation (“Beach is not a CIF sport so Rule 600 doesn’t apply”) to numerous parents. Now they are changing their interpretation and penalizing girls who relied on their original interpretation. And, they are lying about it.
Here’s a summary of what happened:
A. CIF gave clear advice. B. The athletes relied on that advice and played in the 4man. C. CIF changed their position, lied about it, and punished the athletes who relied on their clear advice.
The tournament director of last Sunday’s 4man is Therese Butler. She is the mother of Matt Butler, who plays for Long Beach State. Therese runs the Huntington Beach Pier CBVA tourneys, she’s still a good beach player herself, and she is well known and liked and respected in the SoCal volleyball community. Prior to 2013, Therese had offered a high school girls doubles division as part of the fall 4man. Her flyer each year said “Doubles Format to comply with CIF”. In 2013 & 2014, she deleted that division because CIF had told her that sand volleyball couldn’t violate Rule 600 for indoor volleyball athletes.
In past years, I had not let my kids play in this tournament because of Rule 600. This year, I heard CIF was saying it was allowed, because CIF doesn't consider sand volleyball a sport, so sand volleyball is not the same sport as indoor volleyball and therefore playing sand volleyball never violates Rule 600 regardless of the number of players on the sand team. So, I emailed Therese Butler, the tournament director, to see what she knew. She had been told by CIF that high school volleyball girls could play in the 4man without violating Rule 600 because CIF didn’t regulate sand volleyball at all. Further, other parents had checked with CIF and been told it was allowed, and informed Therese.
Still, I wouldn't let my kids play without checking with CIF myself. There are tons of tournaments kids can play. I would not risk a CIF suspension of my kids or my athletes for any tournament. So, a month before the tournament, on September 29, 2014, I called Kim Wilemon at CIF. She told me clearly and unequivocally they were free to play in the 4man. Right after speaking with CIF, I emailed Therese Butler and cc’d the Saddleback Valley Christian girls & boys volleyball coaches. The email read:
In an abundance of caution, just now I called Kim Wilemon of CIF 562-493-9500. Kim confirmed that CIF athletes are free to play in beach volleyball tournaments during their indoor season. She said CIF doesn’t consider beach volleyball a CIF sport at all and therefore the restriction does not apply that it is a violation if there are 4, 5 or 6 volleyball players (half or more of the CIF on-court team). She said they are free to play. I knew this was what you were saying below but I just wanted to be safe. I asked for Brandy Stuart and they gave me Kim. I’ve spoke with Kim before and she seems to be the person most knowledgeable about volleyball rules. If I remember right, and I’m not positive, I think she is a beach volleyball player herself from Manhattan Beach.
With that clear go-ahead from CIF, I let my girls play in the 4man on 10/26/14. On 10/27/14, Monday after the tournament, Therese emailed me and said that the girls from Huntington Beach High & Edison High had just been suspended for playing in the 4man. She is a teacher and was in class, so she asked if I would call CIF. I did. Here is my email to Therese after calling CIF and speaking with Brandi Stuart on Monday (10/27/14):
I just spoke with Kim Wilemon and Brandy Stuart. Kim is denying the very SPECIFIC conversation where she ABSOLUTELY CONFIRMED it was ok for the athletes to play in the 4man. Fortunately, I had immediately memorialized that conversation in email after speaking with her on September 29, 2014. It is copied below.
Just now Kim said I “misinterpreted” when I spoke with her. That is not correct. Look how clear my email was. I already knew it was fine to play 2-man. I wouldn’t have called for that. I called about the 10/26/14 4-man. I SPECIFICALLY asked Kim about the 4 person rule. That was the ONLY reason I called. I wrote down what she said and put it in the email below immediately after speaking with her on September 29, 2014:
In an abundance of caution, just now I called Kim Wilemon of CIF 562-493-9500. Kim confirmed that CIF athletes are free to play in beach volleyball tournaments during their indoor season. She said CIF doesn’t consider beach volleyball a CIF sport at all and therefore the restriction does not apply that it is a violation if there are 4, 5 or 6 volleyball players (half or more of the CIF on-court team). She said they are free to play. I knew this was what you were saying below but I just wanted to be safe. I asked for Brandy Stuart and they gave me Kim. I’ve spoke with Kim before and she seems to be the person most knowledgeable about volleyball rules. If I remember right, and I’m not positive, I think she is a beach volleyball player herself from Manhattan Beach.
Kim very specifically told me the 4man rule 600 didn’t apply because “CIF DOES NOT CONSIDER BEACH VOLLEYBALL A SPORT”. I wrote down her EXACT WORDS in my email of September 29, 2014. I sent that email immediately after speaking with her. I wear a headset and type fast and when I am speaking with people, I am regularly taking down what they say.
I am very upset. I DID EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING a coach & parent should do to make sure it was perfectly ok, no gray area whatsoever. I took no chances. Even though Beckey Walley had already confirmed with Brandi Stuart, I PERSONALLY made absolutely sure. I was very careful to specifically go to the horse’s mouth (CIF) to confirm. I could have not have been more careful and specific in confirming that this was ok. What CIF is threatening is ABSOLUTELY WRONG!
CIF was giving clear advice (to Lisa Hansen on 9/18/14 & to me on 9/29/14). At some point, they changed their position. The responsible thing would be for them to say “Sorry, we blew it, we gave bad advice, but we of course won’t punish you for following it.” Instead, they’ve deliberately lied, and they have very irresponsibly let 26+ athletes & their teams be subjected to suspensions and forfeitures rather than simply owning their mistake.
Normally, they’d get away with their lie, but in this case the parents documented the advice from Brandi Stuart & Kim Wilemon. Here are text messages sent by Serrano Assistant Principal Lisa Hansen after she contacted CIF on 9/18/14. They say:
Good news! I called CIF and beach volleyball is considered a different sport than indoor and beach volleyball is not a CIF sanctioned sport so they can play. I specifically asked about it being 4 on 4 and they are fine.
Becky Walley was told the same thing on 9/29/14:
I also called and spoke to Brandi Stuart on 09/29/14 and verified that the girls would not jeopardize their HS status if they played in this four-man tournament. She stated that they could play, CIF didn't recognize beach volleyball. I asked several times in different ways to make sure I covered all the bases and she assured me that they could legally play and that the tournament director could call her to verify.
Becky’s 9/29/14 email to tournament director Therese Butler confirmed this:
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. We've talked to CIF and they consider beach volleyball as a separate sport. It is not CIF sanctioned, so they have no rulings over high school players playing beach volleyball. So, from that point, it shouldn't be an issue.
Becky then called AGAIN, and then emailed Therese:
I clarified again with CIF. I spoke with Brandy Stuart (562-493-9500) and she verified that it is two different sports and that CIF doesn't recognize beach volleyball and it would not jeopardize the girls' high school status. She said that you can call her if you want to verify.
Therese Butler then called Sonny Okamoto on 9/29/14, who told her the same thing:
Yes, I spoke with Sonny Okamoto. He said the same thing. CIF doesn't want to police sand volleyball competition at this time.*
*Note-I was wrong about the date of this conversation-Therese corrected me and said said Sonny said this to her in 2013.
I was told the same thing by CIF on 9/29/14:
In an abundance of caution, just now I called Kim Wilemon of CIF 562-493-9500. Kim confirmed that CIF athletes are free to play in beach volleyball tournaments during their indoor season. She said CIF doesn’t consider beach volleyball a CIF sport at all and therefore the restriction does not apply that it is a violation if there are 4, 5 or 6 volleyball players (half or more of the CIF on-court team). She said they are free to play.
The athletes/coaches/schools/teams/families then justifiably relied on CIF’s clear statements.
On Monday, I emailed this highlighted info to Rob Wigod at CIF. I told him:
CIF certainly has the option to change that stance and say they do consider beach volleyball a sport. But, they cannot do it ex post facto, after the fact, and then penalize the athletes.
Unfortunately, Mr. Wigod continues to let the penalty stand.
|
|
|
Post by ncaavballguru on Oct 30, 2014 3:54:04 GMT -5
I think I need to self-report my kid to CIF-SS. She plays on the JV team at her high school, but we've been using her as an emergency substitute in our city league Co-Ed "C" team when some of the folks from our office can't make the games. I hope they don't sanction her with a suspension there's only 3 matches left in her high school team's season and she'll be devastated if she has to sit those out.
|
|
|
Post by ncaavballguru on Oct 30, 2014 4:03:12 GMT -5
I’m a parent/coach/club director who is directly involved. At Saddleback Valley Christian, I am head coach of the girls beach volleyball team, co-head coach of the boys beach volleyball team, and assistant coach of the boys indoor volleyball team. I'm co-founder of American Beach Volleyball Club. 5 of my children played in the 4man. My 2 daughters were suspended for playing. One is suspended for 4 matches and one for 2 matches. [....snipped for easier reading...] Unfortunately, Mr. Wigod continues to let the penalty stand. I guess the only piece of advice I could give you in this situation is next time you call the CIF-SS office asking for clarification on a Bylaw or a any other situation, whatever answer you get, ask them to confirm that via email. IMHO, the CIF-SS sets itself up for failure by creating a whole set of rules that are unenforceable unless someone snitches out someone else. Undue influence rules, outside competition rules, transfer rules, recruiting rules - there's tons of abuse going on throughout the CIF-SS not only in volleyball but in all sports. Only people that get caught are those who are turned in by other people/schools. A good example of a CIF-SS rule that was unenforceable was the contact rules for coaches outside the season of sport. That rule was pretty much a mockery with club sports and private coaching going on. CIF-SS finally repealed that rule about 7-8 years ago because it finally figured out there was no way to enforce it.
|
|
|
Post by vbman100 on Oct 30, 2014 7:22:54 GMT -5
I think CIF is wrong on this one. But it teaches us all something that we hear frequently. Get it in writing. How did 20 or so parents call and not one said "Hey, can I get that in a text or e-mail please?" I don't think the parents are lying and iandyer's post seems to back up all claims by the players' families. Also, how did CIF know who played and find out who to suspend? And so quickly? Based on all the calls they got from various parents asking if it was ok to play? It sounds like they handed out suspensions pretty quickly (the next day). And I also thought it was interesting that in the OP, the Huntington Beach coach did not know that his players were playing in this thing. Not one player or parent consulted him about the CIF rules or let him know they were playing in a sand vb tournament? If our players play in a basketball tournament, or softball, or tennis, or whatever athletic event, during school season, they let us know. At least I think they do.
|
|
|
Post by bigfan on Oct 30, 2014 12:32:16 GMT -5
I’m a parent/coach/club director who is directly involved. Unfortunately, Mr. Wigod continues to let the penalty stand. Great post. Wrong what happened. It is a shame when the rules change and you are not told about it.
|
|
|
Post by sevb on Oct 30, 2014 12:38:21 GMT -5
complete authority with no oversight, integrity, or concern for those being over seen has no place in society... I hope that karma and social media assist these fine upstanding administrators in a near by unemployment line!
|
|
|
Post by chickenwingqueen on Oct 30, 2014 12:46:01 GMT -5
Iandyer- how can I help? Would you like emails directed to one or more of the CIF entities involved?
|
|
|
Post by volleyguy on Oct 30, 2014 12:50:39 GMT -5
It's difficult to arbitrate an issue like this on a message board. There's clearly some information missing. The unanswered questions in my mind are:
1. Why did the Asst Commissioner change her interpretation? (Did she make a mistake, not have all the information to make a conclusive interpretation, or was she over-ruled?) 2. What was the basis for issuing different suspensions(2 matches versus 4 matches.) 3. How and why were the decisions made so quickly after the event (apparently, one or two days later). Did someone file a complaint or was the CIF office already internally reconsidering the issue prior to the start of the tournament?
|
|
|
Post by Cubicle No More ... on Oct 30, 2014 13:56:45 GMT -5
this whole thread only proves the point that the rule(s) were not so clear. and if they were, how did the compliance official at CIF get it so wrong?
if CIF interpreted the rule incorrectly the first go around, that's one thing. but if the recaps of the events here hold true, then what's more egregious is the CIF's handling of the situation when they realized they had to reverse course on the initial ruling.
|
|
|
Post by iandyer on Oct 30, 2014 14:21:47 GMT -5
Iandyer- how can I help? Would you like emails directed to one or more of the CIF entities involved? Chickenwingqueen - Thank you for offering to help. That is encouraging. If you want to share your opinion with CIF, that would be a blessing. I don't think they'll change the current suspensions. But, it might make them hesitate in the future. When our kids make a mistake, we encourage them to own up and repair the damage to the extent possible. Certainly not make others suffer for our mistake. Hopefully we model this to them. CIF is showing them the opposite, to try and cover up the mistake and cover your butt, even that makes others suffer. I hope my kids learn from it, without getting bitter, that life is unfair sometimes and that not all people act honestly and fairly. I hope they see clearly the two ways to live your life, and choose the better way.
|
|
|
Post by Wolfgang on Oct 30, 2014 14:24:42 GMT -5
Whoever invented the saying "Fun in the Sun" is a moron. If you ask me, I think it's torture to stay under the sun for more than 5 minutes.
|
|