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Post by #skoskers on Jan 6, 2015 11:43:49 GMT -5
Where to even begin… First, Ay, it’s too bad that you had to hate on Texas fans, Kentucky, and John Cook to attempt to make a point about race in volleyball. Prefacing your thread as an “honest” discussion by first bashing on coaches, fans, and programs was the first red flag I noted. It’s too bad that the people who actually want to discuss race relations and race in athletics have to first read through such a diatribe. (IDGAF if people are offended by caps lock) PEOPLE WHO REALLY BELIEVE THAT BLACKS ARE ATHLETIC BECAUSE OF THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY ARE UNINFORMED, AND YOUR PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATIONS FOR BLACK SUCCESS IN SPORTS SUPPLEMENTS LONG-HELD CULTURAL CONVICTIONS. THE HISTORICAL ROMANCE WITH SLAVERY AND THE PERSISTENT MISUSES OF RACIAL SCIENCE HAVE SERVED PERMANENT NOTICE OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN AN “INTELLECTUAL” AND “HONEST” INTEREST IN HUMAN DIFFERENCES HARDENS INTO AN OBSESSION BASED ON ETHNICITY OR RACE. Ethnic academia disagrees with the notion that slavery made blacks better athletes. If this were the case, why don’t we see Jews dominating sports, because they too were slaves for centuries? Anthropologists, ethnographers, and biologists have debunked the idea that slavery gifted athletic prowess to Blacks. In my eyes, and many others, socio-economics plays a larger role in shaping the trends of race in athletics, especially volleyball. For many Blacks, who historically and contemporarily have had fewer academic resources to succeed and live the supposed American dream, sports have been their means of access into high incomes, success, and entry into the institutions dominated and controlled by whites. The situation for inner-city schools isn’t getting better, either, so expect to see more Blacks in higher education via athletic scholarship, given that affirmative action programs are sadly becoming endangered in universities. In a Native studies course I took, many speakers pointed out how antiquated theories that Natives are innately dumber and have less intellectual capacity to succeed have been detrimental to the Native community, because it’s not only false and degrading, but it’s completely side stepping a more meaningful conversation. To these guest speakers, they believe that Native American youth don’t have heroes from their community, which means the youth don’t have anyone to idolize or aspire to become, which leads to higher drop-out, incarceration, and alcohol-abuse rates. Whereas whites have a long history of politicians, athletes, entertainers, and CEOs to admire, Blacks are limited to one Black president and a huuuuge slew of athletes and entertainers. Also, your rhetoric makes you seem unsympathetic to Blacks in the first place. Saying that they are “littering the top 10 recruit lists” seems really insensitive, especially for someone who had to first point out that he has African American friends, and, therefore, comes from an “honest” place to discuss these important issues. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t consider the discussion of race and athletics to be taboo. I feel people should discuss these issues. However, I am whole-heartedly against your selfish prefacing paragraph and the idea that slavery made Blacks athletic. I really did write this as a legit discussion...if my lame attempt at witty humor in the 1st paragraph is that much of a distraction, I'll remove it I'm not "unsympathetic" to black people Also, I AM black and I didn't feel the need to mention my friends were black to try and preface this "honesty" (I would have said what I said REGARDLESS of who they are), I used them because I think they are part of the overall point I was trying to make about african americans and the sport of volleyball. Even wealthier African American families (which my friends are) aren't pushing their children into volleyball like they COULD even though there is a lot of opportunity for them to develop and go on to great schools through athletics through volleyball, and I think a decent part of that is the attitude of the parents I also think that ignoring the gene pool here in America for blacks, which had been artificially constricted to more superior athletic people is ignoring history and science. Sure there are a myriad of reasons of why we see more black athletes, much of which is natural genetic, slavery or no slavery, but I also think that genetically superior people building a life with other genetically superior people means their offspring has more of chance to be genetically superior. I liked your post, then you went and edited it, so I had to remove my like. Sorry, I think of it as a pet peeve when people, especially white people, have to establish that they have black friends first before they make a stereotypical comment about blacks, because normally what follows is really insensitive. (Another pet peeve, albeit more forgiving: people who can only argue against the form [caps lock] of my posts rather than the content)
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 6, 2015 11:56:09 GMT -5
And also, the typical white girl tends to like crap music and have really bad taste in boyfriends. Just ask Julie Brown.
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Post by vbnerd on Jan 6, 2015 12:06:10 GMT -5
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 6, 2015 12:06:40 GMT -5
It does bug me to see coaches that are 1/2 hearted about developing well rounded volleyball players. It is like they only enjoy coaching the strengths of the players. It's ever so much EASIER to coach strengths than it is to coach weaknesses.
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Post by #skoskers on Jan 6, 2015 12:14:41 GMT -5
Interesting article. I never would have turned to Forbes, especially an article written by a journalist who reports on crop GMOs, for such information.
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Post by garnet04 on Jan 6, 2015 12:30:13 GMT -5
Huskey, thanks for starting my coffee in bed with first a chuckle then a thought proving post.
Have had all manner of interactions with coaches and players of many colors. They run the gamut from jerks to outstanding people...from dumb to scary smart...just like the rest of us.
Do think a tall girl or one with a great vertical that can hit and block finds it very difficult to get a high school or club coach to let her really learn to set or dig and pass. They need her hitting and blocking more than they need to develop an all around player. On occasion, the available back row talent is so scarce, they get to play all positions. This specialization does not seem to be based on color but talent and need IMO.
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Post by ja on Jan 6, 2015 12:30:14 GMT -5
Great topic..... and it annoys the !!!!###$$$!!! out of me that people get hung up on all the non-related elements of the first post. Can't we all just be mature enough to ignore that stuff and focus on the real topic? Just to add my own personal experience with this: I play in an adult league every Monday evening that starts at 8:30. When we get to the club, there are volleyball club teams practicing before my league on four separate courts. I'm guessing the age range of the girls to be between 8 and 14. I'm guessing there are 50+ girls on these courts.... Maybe a few more white girls than black.... but pretty evenly split. While I'm stretching, I get to watch the last 10-15 minutes of their practice. General observations: 1. ALL of the top attackers and blockers are black. 2. ALL the setters are white. 3. The coaches criticisms/critiques are interesting to watch. I rarely see them critiquing black girls ball control.... only hitting and blocking. vice versa for most of the white girls. It is as if the coaches don't expect the black girls to ever become good ball control players..... just like they don't expect the white girls to become good attackers and blockers. They all do the same drills, but expectations out of those drills are different. I do question how much this has to do about race. Or... is this simply a matter that the black girls in the club just happen to be taller. Is this simply a stature issue? Regardless of the real issue.... it does bug me to see coaches that are 1/2 hearted about developing well rounded volleyball players. It is like they only enjoy coaching the strengths of the players. I have been training my kids regardless of race and physical abilities to be a volleyball player! One of my best black girls played setter for me (she is finishing this year her Doctor in PH degree, another one is 6 rotation OH, with very good passing and defense. To say that black girls don't need to learn how to pass because they can hit is absolutely ridiculous! This is the choice coaches made for them and this is totally wrong, let the player enjoy the game! Do not kill this love for the game with early specialization! Stereotypes are dominating our sport as well as our life. The question "SHOULD WE PAY" for me is totally cultural, not financial! I had to talk to many parents and most of them well enough to afford my club coast, still they would better spend those money to buy another pair of Jordan's or LeBron's snickers or new iPhone for their daughters then travel with girls to tournament. The question is really much more serious about how to change culture and start leaving in 21st century! Moses lead his people for 40 years in the desert not to get them out of slavery, but to let slavery get out of his people!
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Post by ugopher on Jan 6, 2015 12:32:31 GMT -5
My thoughts, FWIW, are these: - Basketball has always had an advantage over volleyball in terms of younger participation, regardless of race. Primarily, because it is what people (parents) know. - Basketball starts programs at a much younger age, 6,7 years old. If you can get a 10 year old interested in the sport, you are lucky. - You can always find basketball programs as the city rec program level at young ages. Very few volleyball programs at any age. - Basketball programs do a better job of teaching the basics - dribbling, passing, etc. - at a very young age than do volleyball programs. - Volleyball is not an easy sport to learn for a young person
However: - I have seen more "white" players moving away from basketball and towards volleyball at an older age - 14, 15. - Some of this has to do with the size of players. BB players are getting larger and more physical. Some girls don't like that. - Players have gotten more athletic as the grow up and volleyball can be easier to "master." Some girls begin to like the pace and action of volleyball vs. basketball.
I feel that girls of color will follow this trend as well.
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Post by dunninla on Jan 6, 2015 13:03:46 GMT -5
Unfortunately the original post contained several distinct ideas that each merit a separate thread.
- Blacks are better athletes than... white, hispanic, asian, or whatever other category exists - Great attackers are typically not trained to be six rotation players or setters - Black players in any sport are found in the athletic positions, but rarely in the decision making positions - It is difficult to get the black community to participate in volleyball, or understand the scholarship opportunities available to volleyball players.
I'm sure I missed one, but the point is that it is not productive to mix four completely separate subjects into one thread and expect a useful conversation to ensue.
My comment is about the specialization of player roles only:
As a recreational but serious beach player, both 2 man and 4 man, who has never played the Indoor game, I find it absurd that any player of volleyball wouldn't want to learn the skills needed to effectively set, spike, block, dig, serve, and play team defense. To me the Indoor game isn't even real volleyball, but a perversion of a fascinating sport that, on the beach, requires EVERY skill to succeed. It is so absurd that a libero in the men's college game is not allowed to serve... WTF? Why such specialization?
Imagine if in tennis doubles, one player plays permanently at the net, and never received serve, never served, and never hit ground strokes. Absurd, isn't it?
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Post by Wolfgang on Jan 6, 2015 13:10:37 GMT -5
Sorry, I think of it as a pet peeve when people, especially white people, have to establish that they have black friends first before they make a stereotypical comment about blacks, because normally what follows is really insensitive. During my freshmen year of college, I lived in a three-person dorm room. It wasn't a fancy suite with a private bathroom and living room like the ones they have now. No, no, back then, they just had a tiny room and put a bunk bed and a single. Anyway, my two roommates were white and Black. Within a week, the white dude moved out. LOL! I laughed and laughed about it but my Black roommate was more sensitive and took it personally. The white dude had a "girlfriend" on campus and I would bump into her once in a while. Actually, I got along better with this girl than my former White roommate. If I had the nerve to ask her out then, I think she would've agreed. But I was such a chicken. Yeah...nothing to do with volleyball.
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Post by vbnerd on Jan 6, 2015 13:12:11 GMT -5
Interesting article. I never would have turned to Forbes, especially an article written by a journalist who reports on crop GMOs, for such information. I guess genetics is genetics.
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Post by chancelucky on Jan 6, 2015 13:43:28 GMT -5
It's interesting. I'm trying to think of African-American liberos I've seen at the college level and the only ones have been with historically black colleges.
I've seen a lot of Asian-American liberos. I've seen a few African-American setters, though not many. A lot of back row players walk on, so it's maybe a combination of paying club fees and paying tuition with fewer African-American families being upper middle class.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 6, 2015 13:52:57 GMT -5
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Post by chancelucky on Jan 6, 2015 14:12:41 GMT -5
Thanks....
I even saw Oregon play a match this season and didn't really notice the race of the libero. Maybe that's a good sign :}
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Post by mikegarrison on Jan 6, 2015 14:15:38 GMT -5
Thanks.... I even saw Oregon play a match this season and didn't really notice the race of the libero. Maybe that's a good sign :} Jacob graduated two years ago.
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