|
Post by mikegarrison on Jan 7, 2015 3:09:50 GMT -5
Why would "African-American" be found anywhere else in the world? I'm not necessarily talking about the exact phrase, more of the fact that if you are in Europe and someone is referred to as "African" they are most likely born in Africa. White people aren't referred to as "European Americans" in similar situations in the states. Why is there a difference? In the states anyone that is black is usually referred to with "African-American" even when they are not (ex. dark skinned Caribbean or South American heritage). It has bothered some of my friends in the past, and therefore started to bother me as I noticed it more. Our country seems to have a need to continually separate people as a societal norm and I'm curious as to why? But to your point, if a black US citizen is anywhere else in the world they would not use the term "African-American." Well you know, in most of Europe the population of African people (generally speaking) can usually trace their family back to a particular place. They are Ivorians or Ghanans or Kenyans or something. Or maybe they identify more as Masai or Mbuti. Because of the history of slavery in the US, however, there is a huge population of people who have had ancestors here (not in Africa) for three or four centuries and were deliberately separated from their origins back in Africa, so their culture is not "African" per se at all. The commonly accepted term for them is African-American, and it's reasonably accurate enough. It's also not unique to people of full or partial African descent. You hear "Italian-American," "Polish-American," Irish-American," etc. I mean, if your great grandparents came to the US from Ireland, are you really supposed to call yourself "Irish"? That should probably be reserved for people who have Irish passports. But if you want to acknowledge your family culture, the term "Irish-American" seems to work as well as any. I agree that "African-American" isn't really accurate if you don't really have any roots in the slave trade. In that case, it should probably be more like "Ethiopian-American" or "Nigerian-American."
|
|
|
Post by tommyboy on Jan 7, 2015 11:02:29 GMT -5
I'm not necessarily talking about the exact phrase, more of the fact that if you are in Europe and someone is referred to as "African" they are most likely born in Africa. White people aren't referred to as "European Americans" in similar situations in the states. Why is there a difference? In the states anyone that is black is usually referred to with "African-American" even when they are not (ex. dark skinned Caribbean or South American heritage). It has bothered some of my friends in the past, and therefore started to bother me as I noticed it more. Our country seems to have a need to continually separate people as a societal norm and I'm curious as to why? But to your point, if a black US citizen is anywhere else in the world they would not use the term "African-American." Well you know, in most of Europe the population of African people (generally speaking) can usually trace their family back to a particular place. They are Ivorians or Ghanans or Kenyans or something. Or maybe they identify more as Masai or Mbuti. Because of the history of slavery in the US, however, there is a huge population of people who have had ancestors here (not in Africa) for three or four centuries and were deliberately separated from their origins back in Africa, so their culture is not "African" per se at all. The commonly accepted term for them is African-American, and it's reasonably accurate enough. It's also not unique to people of full or partial African descent. You hear "Italian-American," "Polish-American," Irish-American," etc. I mean, if your great grandparents came to the US from Ireland, are you really supposed to call yourself "Irish"? That should probably be reserved for people who have Irish passports. But if you want to acknowledge your family culture, the term "Irish-American" seems to work as well as any. I agree that "African-American" isn't really accurate if you don't really have any roots in the slave trade. In that case, it should probably be more like "Ethiopian-American" or "Nigerian-American." First, sorry for hijacking the thread. I hate when people do that and now it's me. You make my point exactly. We don't go around calling people Italian-American or Polish-American every day. Maybe on a specific occasion, but it's not something I hear regularly outside of the term African-American. Like you said, Africa has a huge genetic diversity and to simplify a whole group by that is wrong. It's not like these are new residents of the country, almost all have been here for many generations longer than my family.
|
|
|
Post by Wolfgang on Jan 7, 2015 11:15:13 GMT -5
It's somewhat puzzling that the term "African-American" is used instead of, say, Kenyan-American or Nigerian-American. After all, Italians get to refer to themselves as "Italian-Americans" and not "European-American." In fact, I've never heard anyone use the term "European-American." It probably has some historical origin or just a bunch of stupid white people painting with a broad brush again. I noticed that for Asians, the term "Asian-American" is still used, but I've also seen more and more people use more specific terminology like "Japanese-American" or "Chinese-American." I've just never seen such specificity for people of African origins.
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Jan 7, 2015 11:16:50 GMT -5
Except we do need a name for this group of people. Many of the previous names for them have been rejected by the people themselves. The two that seem to be generally agreed as being polite these days are "black" and "African-American." Neither name is necessarily literally accurate. But what's your proposal?
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Jan 7, 2015 11:25:10 GMT -5
It's somewhat puzzling that the term "African-American" is used instead of, say, Kenyan-American or Nigerian-American. After all, Italians get to refer to themselves as "Italian-Americans" and not "European-American." In fact, I've never heard anyone use the term "European-American." It probably has some historical origin or just a bunch of stupid white people painting with a broad brush again. I noticed that for Asians, the term "Asian-American" is still used, but I've also seen more and more people use more specific terminology like "Japanese-American" or "Chinese-American." I've just never seen such specificity for people of African origins. Here in Seattle we have a community of Ethiopians and also a community of Eritreans. Both are basically refugees from the same war (against each other). Like I just said, though, a lot of people of African descent in the US can't really identify with any particular place in Africa except, usually, some vague sense of having some ancestors from somewhere in Western Africa. It's hard to get any more specific than just "African" after so many years, especially when the people who forcibly brought them over here in the first place didn't really know or care exactly where they came from.
|
|
|
Post by david on Jan 7, 2015 11:32:30 GMT -5
Most young people I know say "Black" instead of "African-American". It's clear basketball has had advantages of court availability and coaching base (that will continue), but also clear that basketball is more physical (in terms of contact), which some/many girls don't like. So volleyball has been increasing in popularity with those who can afford club.
Pro prospects, coaching prospects (you can make some money as a coach, especially if it helps provide an in as a teacher), and scholarship prospects are long shot canards, but if both parents are athletic (and tall) then deciding on sport(s) to get your kid involved with at an early age makes sense, especially if they're interested in tennis, golf, swimming, where elite kids start before 10. Team sports like volleyball and basketball... if she's athletic enough, she can wait until she's 13 to get started- plenty of time to develop technique. So I'd probably have my kid start with tennis, then try soccer to develop their foot speed.
Here's another canard to consider: What if football goes the way of the dodo bird due to concussion concerns? What if D1 athletic budgets and scholarship opportunities then shrink as that cash cow dies off? A lot fewer scholarships will mean a lot fewer clubs, IMO. Basketball would then reassert itself as playground hoops once again become much more available, although soccer could emerge as the big winner in that scenario.
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Jan 7, 2015 11:48:24 GMT -5
Most young people I know say "Black" instead of "African-American". It's clear basketball has had advantages of court availability and coaching base (that will continue), but also clear that basketball is more physical (in terms of contact), which some/many girls don't like. So volleyball has been increasing in popularity with those who can afford club. Pro prospects, coaching prospects (you can make some money as a coach, especially if it helps provide an in as a teacher), and scholarship prospects are long shot canards, but if both parents are athletic (and tall) then deciding on sport(s) to get your kid involved with at an early age makes sense, especially if they're interested in tennis, golf, swimming, where elite kids start before 10. Team sports like volleyball and basketball... if she's athletic enough, she can wait until she's 13 to get started- plenty of time to develop technique. So I'd probably have my kid start with tennis, then try soccer to develop their foot speed. Here's another canard to consider: What if football goes the way of the dodo bird due to concussion concerns? What if D1 athletic budgets and scholarship opportunities then shrink as that cash cow dies off? A lot fewer scholarships will mean a lot fewer clubs, IMO. Basketball would then reassert itself as playground hoops once again become much more available, although soccer could emerge as the big winner in that scenario. Soccer has its own concussion problem. Volleyball is nowhere near the worst in terms of cost and the need for early special training leading to a limitations on the pool of available athletes. Maybe the worst I know of is race driving. The world class elites are usually in their early 20s and have been doing it for almost 20 years -- some of them learning to race karts at ages as low as five. And the expense is incredible. The competition to get D1 scholarships in volleyball is nothing like the competition to get a paid-for "ride" as a developing race car driver. I don't think there is any one simple answer here. We are looking at a lot of different influences affecting each other to effect the final outcome.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 23:42:50 GMT -5
Interesting, but I wonder if we can ever have an honest discussion as long as there are so many preconceived, and totally inaccurate, ideas about certain programs and the states they represent -- because I've seen it here.
|
|
|
Post by ncaavballguru on Jan 8, 2015 0:33:18 GMT -5
John Thompson needs to come out of retirement and coach the women's volleyball team at Georgetown.
|
|
|
Post by timduckforlife on Jan 9, 2015 20:08:48 GMT -5
I have a lot of thoughts:
A. I think that while there is probably some truth to genetics, there is enough science about athleticism and training that just about anyone can become a good athlete with the right workout regime, plyometrics anyone? So yes, you can train to jump higher, hit harder, develop a solid core, etc...
2. If, and especially at a young age, you have a coach that wants to pigeonhole players into specific catagories, IE: OH 3 rotation player, you need to get your kid out of that program and into one that will teach your child all volleyball skills, and that's regardless of ethnicity. That's just good fundamental coaching. And if they aren't doing that, then that's a bad coach.
3. Club volleyball is unfortunately prohibitively expensive by comparison to other sports. Basically over $3000 for 1 kid at the club level is high, and in some programs, there is over 100 kids in it. I woiuld suggest, if you are considering club volleyball for your child, go have a talk with the head coach. Lay out your specific criteria, ie, all rotations, or at the very least everyone has the opportunity to learn all volleyball skills.
4. Honestly, in terms of black athletes, esp women, volleyball is an incredible opportunity and growth area. It's just not on the radar I think due to the dominance of basketball in America. Men's basketball really controls the airwaves whether that's at the collegiate level or NBA level. It's, IMO, going to take a combined effort and a lot of luck to start to change that dynamic. IE more than 1 club program that isn't a "for profit" organization. And from there, a few top All American prospects emerge and begin to steal away kids from the higher priced club teams. And that also means coaches that are willing and able to make a club team at a Boys & Girls club or a local YMCA. The problem with those places, unfortunately, is that juset like in a lot gym classes and college classes, the volleyball teachers aren't volleyball players. They don't understand a thing about the sport and only know what they remember and only teach that and what they've read in a "Teaching Volleyball for Dummies" handbook.
edit: as a gym rat, I go to a lot of open gyms, and it's amazing to me how many people just don't understand the basics, never learned basic skills, and when you ask them about it, they took a class in college, and as thus, set from the middle, no one has a clue about middle-back on defense or if you mention reading the hitter and the blocker, they just look at you with a blank stare in there eyes. Or if you tell them that if they are going to play middle-up, then they need to take tips, yet are consistently beat by tips and just look at you and wonder why you didn't get it even though you are staying deep.
5. On a positive note: I think volleyball is growing rapidly nation wide and becoming on of the most popular women's sports in America. I think the Pac12 aired over 100 games this season, which attests to what people want to watch.
6. And while I understand this is the women's volleyball area of this forum, I think to take volleyball to the next level in this country, we need more men's programs. Let's face it, there's only a handful of men's club teams in a few small regions of the USA, and then just an extreme minority of other states. How many states have boys high school volleyball?
7. And for volleyball to take it to the "next" level, I think there needs to be a legitimate pro-league. One that can stand on it's own and have good, loyal fans. I think it would help to see that kids and even parents see that there is a possible future to the sport. That it can stand on it's own and make money. Granted I understand that is an extremely tall order and not in the very near future. Hell, I think even the WNBA still doesn't make money and the only reason it's still around is because the NBA basically finances the whole thing. What could be interesting is if the powers that be behind USA volleyball could, as as wishful thinking idea, come to an accord with the NFL to help subsidize a women's volleyball league. Thus the NFL can be seen as supporting women's athletics like the NBA does.
|
|
|
Post by timduckforlife on Jan 9, 2015 20:24:58 GMT -5
Thanks.... I even saw Oregon play a match this season and didn't really notice the race of the libero. Maybe that's a good sign :} Jacob graduated two years ago. Haley Jacob was probably the best athletic libero I've ever seen. So fast, made some insanely crazy digs. The most interesting story around Jacob was how good of an athlete she really was. A the UofO every athlete is tested for there athletic prowess. She was the best pure athlete in the entire school, and that's not just women. And she beat out all the football players and basketball players. At the time, I think 98-99% of anyone at the school would probably have said that the best purt athlete at the UofO would have been D'Anthony Thomas (now playing for the Kansas City Chiefs), but Jacob even beat him out. And he was considered one of the best athletes in all of college football. I personally thought she was better than Hagglund. But that's debatable. I think in terms of technicals and reads, Hagglund may have been better, but in terms of just playing, I thought Jacob was better but she was able to get away with a lot more due to that crazy athletic ability.
|
|
|
Post by trampas on Jan 14, 2015 12:59:52 GMT -5
I am just disappointed ay edited his original post to not include the first paragraph. It was gold I tell you--gold!
|
|
|
Post by onfiya on Jan 15, 2015 13:35:07 GMT -5
^ Agree!
While true that the understanding and appreciation of volleyball is less prevalent in the black community than the white community, which is also really low, the main factor for the divide is finances. If given the chance to participate in a sport, I think we as parents would lean toward any sport that our kids enjoyed and that there was ample opportunity for their success.
One poster spoke of $3,000. That doesn't begin to touch what it costs a kid to be involved in high level junior volleyball today. More like $7-10K/yr when you consider instruction, travel and everything else involved. I think it's wonderful that some non-profit clubs are scholarshipping kids to expose them to the sport, and that typically translates in to developing a volleyball athlete that is far superior to the typical white girl from the burbs (WGFTB). Kid wins. Club wins.
Can you imagine what the NCAA or NFL would look like if it cost a family 10K to have their son play Pop Warner football? How would the NBA look if AAU basketball cost a family ten grand?
The costs of junior level volleyball is the real problem. I am one of the "suckers" who bought in to it when my daughter was 10 and all of her WGFTB buddies started playing. We've spent tens of thousands of dollars on the sport and I would do it again gladly. We've received so much from the sport. So many great family memories and even greater friends. My girl has busted her butt and become one of the best in her age group. She's one of the lucky few that will get college paid for at an outstanding school. But with that being said, I do understand that we were fortunate to be able to afford it, and that the system will roll on just as long as those profits are being pumped in to it by the "few". I also understand that if it were a more inclusive sport that my WGFTB daughter might not be the one picked for that big time DI program!
|
|
|
Post by volleytology on Jan 15, 2015 13:39:07 GMT -5
^ Agree! While true that the understanding and appreciation of volleyball is less prevalent in the black community than the white community, which is also really low, the main factor for the divide is finances. If given the chance to participate in a sport, I think we as parents would lean toward any sport that our kids enjoyed and that there was ample opportunity for their success. One poster spoke of $3,000. That doesn't begin to touch what it costs a kid to be involved in high level junior volleyball today. More like $7-10K/yr when you consider instruction, travel and everything else involved. I think it's wonderful that some non-profit clubs are scholarshipping kids to expose them to the sport, and that typically translates in to developing a volleyball athlete that is far superior to the typical white girl from the burbs (WGFTB). Kid wins. Club wins. Can you imagine what the NCAA or NFL would look like if it cost a family 10K to have their son play Pop Warner football? How would the NBA look if AAU basketball cost a family ten grand? The costs of junior level volleyball is the real problem. I am one of the "suckers" who bought in to it when my daughter was 10 and all of her WGFTB buddies started playing. We've spent tens of thousands of dollars on the sport and I would do it again gladly. We've received so much from the sport. So many great family memories and even greater friends. My girl has busted her butt and become one of the best in her age group. She's one of the lucky few that will get college paid for at an outstanding school. But with that being said, I do understand that we were fortunate to be able to afford it, and that the system will roll on just as long as those profits are being pumped in to it by the "few". I also understand that if it were a more inclusive sport that my WGFTB daughter might not be the one picked for that big time DI program! I hear the 10K amount per club season thrown around quite a bit as if it's a norm. Can you break down that 10K into actual expenses just so I get a sense of how that 10K amount accrues ? Nothing elaborate, just a basic breakdown if possible. Thanks
|
|
|
Post by elevationvb on Jan 15, 2015 14:04:36 GMT -5
The kid is 5... FIVE... the parents need to slow their roll by about 10 years I wouldn't question the motives of the parents since all we have is the word of the OP.
And what business is it for the OP to try to "reason with them" about their 5 year old playing this sport or that sport. And getting a 5 year old to a coach for lessons is bad, bad, bad no matter the race of any kid.
|
|