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Post by mikesmith on Jan 26, 2015 3:36:51 GMT -5
...Al Scates' 1200 + wins?
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Post by ucsdfan on Jan 26, 2015 13:10:06 GMT -5
...Al Scates' 1200 + wins? Awesome video. What he did for the sport will never be touched. Very impressive resume for Coach K as well. If you add up their national titles plus add in Wooden's titles for good measure, that's a very impressive number of NCAA titles (33 total). Collectively, with 33 NCAA titles, they are only nine short of tying Coach McDonnell who by himself has 42 NCAA national titles as a head coach. I beleive when you put it all into perspective and consider the different sports, the number of competitive teams, the travel and schedule, the pressure to reload rosters with early defections for pro sports, and the support they got form their ADs, it's obvious that comparisons cannot be cleanly made. I think what Al Scates did to build a sport and a program is amazing. But personally, I think what Coach K did in a sport where the recruitment wars are intense and number of compeittive teams that have the history and institutional support to win an NCAA title is more impressive than what Scates did, and I am a bit of a UCLA homer. |
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Post by mikesmith on Jan 27, 2015 5:39:47 GMT -5
I think what Al Scates did to build a sport and a program is amazing. But personally, I think what Coach K did in a sport where the recruitment wars are intense and number of compeittive teams that have the history and institutional support to win an NCAA title is more impressive than what Scates did, and I am a bit of a UCLA homer. There is no doubt that Coach K's ability to win in a sport that requires coaches to do nothing but recruit, year round, every year for as long as he has is incredible. Comparing Men's Basketball and Men's Volleyball in recruitment and pressure is ridiculous. Plus, Coach K is known to have the reputation as a leader of young men and as being an outstanding person. Kind of like the way Marv Dunphy is revered in Men's Volleyball. But comparing Coach K vs Coach Scates' impact on their respective sports? Apples vs Oranges. Most volleyball fans, players, coaches and volleyball historians don't quite understand what Al Scates' impact was on volleyball as an NCAA sport. Without Coach Scates? NCAA volleyball would look completely different than it does today, if volleyball would even be an NCAA sport. After Pauley Pavilion first opened, Al Scates hosted a volleyball triple header (UCLA vs USC, USA Women vs Japan Women and USA Men vs Japan Men) there. It effected JD Morgan (UCLA Athletic Director and NCAA basketball committee chairman) and was the flashpoint that made NCAA volleyball an NCAA sport. Al Scates had to beg JD Morgan to allow the event to be played there before he put it on. Then, Coach Scates went out and had to market the game using posters and word of mouth. 5000 people paid to watch the triple header and after seeing the sport played at such a high level and seeing the crowd's reaction to the matches, JD Morgan approached Coach Scates and said, "I'm going to make Volleyball an NCAA sport." Without Coach Scates, who knows if there would even be NCAA volleyball? Without Coach K? NCAA basketball would have lost a great coach and great person. But NCAA basketball still would have had: Jim Valvano, Nolan Richardson, John Thompson Jr, Ray Meyer, Phog Allen, Rick Pitino, Branch McCracken, Don Haskins, Hank Iba, Clair Bee, Jim Boeheim, Roy Williams, Dean Smith, Bobby Knight and of course, John Wooden. Your point about winning 1000 NCAA basketball games in the climate of NCAA basketball today is well said and very important as a comparison, winning wise. But what they did for their respective sports? Next time you're at the AVCA convention (both men's and women's) and you see Al, make sure to thank him. Not be argumentative on your other topic, but John McDonnell coached track and field, which has within it, several team sports (Men's and Women's outdoor, Men's and Women's indoor and Men's and Women's Cross Country). I imagine if Al Scates was coaching Men's and Women's indoor, Men's and Women's beach and Men's and Women's Wally ball, he'd have 60+ championships… At least. |
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Post by ucsdfan on Jan 27, 2015 13:25:31 GMT -5
The McDonnell reference was there to point out the apple vs. oranges nature of titles and victories. Winning 42 championships is impressve no doubt, but the number is decepetive in that many of his athletes carried over between very similar sports. The comparison of titles across eras and sports is unrealistic. Comparing Scates championships and victories to Coach K cannot be done.
Your thread title asked if Coach K's 1000th win put Scates career record into perspective, and I would say it does not. They cannot be compared. But from a pure "what does it take to win 1000 NCAA basketball games in today's era versus what did it take to win 1200 college volleyball games over 50 seasons including the 60s, 70s, and 80s when there were less than six good teams on average each year?" perspective, I think Coach K's milestone is more impressive. I also think his four NCs and Scates 19 NCs are far more impressive than McDonnell's titles that resulted from dominating distance running more than opponent dominated sprinting and field events.
But you make a great point. Take Coach K away from college basketball, and it would have still been successful and those athletes that attended Duke would have simply gained their success and fame elsewhere. The sport would have been essentially the same. Not taking anything away from Coach K, but as you pinted out, the sport has had no shortage of successful and high-profile coaches.
Take Scates away from NCAA volleyball, and as you point out, it may not have existed. Or if it eventually did exist (however many years later), it would not have happened in time for us to win Olympic gold in 1984 or 1988. Many volleyball athletes and coaches would not have had a place to showcase their skills in the 70s and 80s if not for Scates efforts. But Scates could only push a sport if there were other teams. UCLA obviosuly had a team when he arrived, so there were things in place. People like Marv and Arnie have also played a role, so whie we should all thank Al Scates, we should also spend time to thank some of the other pioneers as well.
I'm glad you put this out there, because without bringing up the impact of the past on today, we tend to forget and fail to appreciate how lucky we are. College volleyball today is in a pretty good place with 12 MPSF teams, 9 MIVA teams, 10 CC teams, and 7 PSUIVA teams. Add in the many other teams, and it seems that a kid who wants to play college volleyball will find a way. I also think that with the advent of the inetrnet, recruiting has changed forever in terms of the lower revenue-generating sports such as volleyball, and dominance for more than a few years is unfathomable. What Speraw did in his short tenure at UCI, inclduing leaving the cupbard full for Kniffen to get a title his first year, is a pretty amazing coaching feat. From a coaching standpoint, we have some preatty great coaches in the game right now, who also need a thank you.
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Post by ncaavballguru on Jan 27, 2015 15:21:40 GMT -5
Well, personally, I think Coach K's accomplishment dwarfs anything Scates did.
Coach K played everybody. Scates played the same teams and beat up the same teams every year.
Coach K's teams at Duke (and, I'll assume, at Army) were a reflection of his own personal behavior and philosophy. Classy, great sportsmanship, honored the game. How many times after a tough loss has Coach K been interviewed and had nothing but praise for his opponent that just defeated his team?
Scates' teams were always arrogant jerks. Who can forget Eric Sullivan throwing his runner-up trophy in the trash can after UCLA lost to Penn State in 1994? Or Nygaard sulking during the award presentation with his arms folded and wearing his ugly-ass flannel shirt over his game jersey during the entire presentation? Everyone think's Karch is godlike now because he won 3 Gold Medals and coached the USA Women to their first-ever FIVB gold medal in major competition. Truth is, Karch was an arrogant jerk (along with most of his teammates from that era) while he was UCLA.
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Post by ucsdfan on Jan 27, 2015 17:46:49 GMT -5
Well, personally, I think Coach K's accomplishment dwarfs anything Scates did. Coach K played everybody. Scates played the same teams and beat up the same teams every year. Coach K's teams at Duke (and, I'll assume, at Army) were a reflection of his own personal behavior and philosophy. Classy, great sportsmanship, honored the game. How many times after a tough loss has Coach K been interviewed and had nothing but praise for his opponent that just defeated his team? Scates' teams were always arrogant jerks. Who can forget Eric Sullivan throwing his runner-up trophy in the trash can after UCLA lost to Penn State in 1994? Or Nygaard sulking during the award presentation with his arms folded and wearing his ugly-ass flannel shirt over his game jersey during the entire presentation? Everyone think's Karch is godlike now because he won 3 Gold Medals and coached the USA Women to their first-ever FIVB gold medal in major competition. Truth is, Karch was an arrogant jerk (along with most of his teammates from that era) while he was UCLA. Arrogant volleyball players, just like in all sports, can be found everywhere. Scates recruited driven players, independent of personality. Some were jerks and others were amazingly great people. I think it's unfair to say that "most of his teammates from that era" were arrogant, because I have known two personally and found them to be some of the nicest, most appreciative people I have met. The personality of a team may bend towards its leaders, but the individuals are still who they are. Other schools have had jerks as their stars too. Ciarelli at USC, Romain at Pepperdine, Costas at Hawai'i, and Wall at BYU have all been referred to as arrogant and prima donas, but what coach would not want their talent on their team? I can't fault Scates for his arrogance or the recruitment of talent independent of personality. Coach K is a more likeable personality than Scates, but that does not negate the fact that Scates was the driving force for the NCAA to take on mens volleyball at the time it happened. Scates has given a great deal to this game. We owe him much gratitude for fighting for the sport. But as far as coaching goes, once the internet became a major recruiting tool, talent started to spread more evenly between schools, and UCLA's dominance ended abruptly. So you could make an argument that Scates wasn't as superior of a coach as it seemed and that many of those wins were the result of a roster filled with the best talent. Coach K stayed dominant as the landscape changed in a conference where he had more tough conference games than Scates had tough games in an entire season (including the playoffs). Winning two matches over a weekend for a title versus winning six games over seventeen days is also a big difference. I agree that the coaching success Coach K had in basketball is more impressive than the coaching success Coach Scates had in volleyball, but I agree with Mike Smith that Scates did more for his sport than Coach K did for his. |
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Post by ncaavballguru on Jan 27, 2015 18:43:50 GMT -5
Well, personally, I think Coach K's accomplishment dwarfs anything Scates did. Coach K played everybody. Scates played the same teams and beat up the same teams every year. Coach K's teams at Duke (and, I'll assume, at Army) were a reflection of his own personal behavior and philosophy. Classy, great sportsmanship, honored the game. How many times after a tough loss has Coach K been interviewed and had nothing but praise for his opponent that just defeated his team? Scates' teams were always arrogant jerks. Who can forget Eric Sullivan throwing his runner-up trophy in the trash can after UCLA lost to Penn State in 1994? Or Nygaard sulking during the award presentation with his arms folded and wearing his ugly-ass flannel shirt over his game jersey during the entire presentation? Everyone think's Karch is godlike now because he won 3 Gold Medals and coached the USA Women to their first-ever FIVB gold medal in major competition. Truth is, Karch was an arrogant jerk (along with most of his teammates from that era) while he was UCLA. I can't fault Scates for his arrogance or the recruitment of talent independent of personality. I can. |
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Post by volleyfred on Jan 28, 2015 9:59:00 GMT -5
Yeah, basketball and volleyball are 2 different sports, recruiting wise. Although for the women, it's more competitive and those coaches who've had to recruit for both sides would tell you that.
Al Scates is a legend and can't be thanked enough for what he did for the sport.
Ncaaguru... a little harsh, eh?
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Post by akbar on Jan 28, 2015 10:21:14 GMT -5
Well, personally, I think Coach K's accomplishment dwarfs anything Scates did. Coach K played everybody. Scates played the same teams and beat up the same teams every year. Coach K's teams at Duke (and, I'll assume, at Army) were a reflection of his own personal behavior and philosophy. Classy, great sportsmanship, honored the game. How many times after a tough loss has Coach K been interviewed and had nothing but praise for his opponent that just defeated his team? Scates' teams were always arrogant jerks. Who can forget Eric Sullivan throwing his runner-up trophy in the trash can after UCLA lost to Penn State in 1994? Or Nygaard sulking during the award presentation with his arms folded and wearing his ugly-ass flannel shirt over his game jersey during the entire presentation? Everyone think's Karch is godlike now because he won 3 Gold Medals and coached the USA Women to their first-ever FIVB gold medal in major competition. Truth is, Karch was an arrogant jerk (along with most of his teammates from that era) while he was UCLA. I think this is a little over the top calling people out like that. I've found some Bruins to be terrific people on and off the court. The competitive nature of their practice court demanded them to be hungry and intense and the results were undeniable. How a player acts a few times after a loss when he is 18 or 22 in such a competitive and high expectation program is not a capsule of who they are. Those days are gone and the parity in the sport has a lot to do with that. |
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Post by volleyfred on Jan 30, 2015 4:18:12 GMT -5
Well, personally, I think Coach K's accomplishment dwarfs anything Scates did. Coach K played everybody. Scates played the same teams and beat up the same teams every year. Coach K's teams at Duke (and, I'll assume, at Army) were a reflection of his own personal behavior and philosophy. Classy, great sportsmanship, honored the game. How many times after a tough loss has Coach K been interviewed and had nothing but praise for his opponent that just defeated his team? Scates' teams were always arrogant jerks. Who can forget Eric Sullivan throwing his runner-up trophy in the trash can after UCLA lost to Penn State in 1994? Or Nygaard sulking during the award presentation with his arms folded and wearing his ugly-ass flannel shirt over his game jersey during the entire presentation? Everyone think's Karch is godlike now because he won 3 Gold Medals and coached the USA Women to their first-ever FIVB gold medal in major competition. Truth is, Karch was an arrogant jerk (along with most of his teammates from that era) while he was UCLA. Those days are gone and the parity in the sport has a lot to do with that. It really is a great thing that volleyball has broadened in this country the past few years. The CC conference is helping and hopefully, it progresses. Maybe some Midwest schools that have big time Women's programs can join in too? Eh... Probably a pipe dream |
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Post by ncaavballguru on Jan 30, 2015 4:56:15 GMT -5
Yeah, whatever. I've watched more than enough UCLA men's volleyball through the decades to have my own opinion.
What specifically did Al Scates do for men's volleyball that was so earth-shattering? He coached for 40 plus years at UCLA, most of it in a part-time position, ran some summer camps, put on a few tournaments here and there, and won a ton of collegiate titles in an era when there were maybe 3 to 4 other true contenders in the men's college game every season, and basically got the best recruits every year from the early 60's to about the early 90's by selling UCLA's "tradition".
There's a lot of other guys from that era would have done just as much as Scates minus the arrogance and attitude. Tom Tait, Don Shondell, Arnie Ball, Pete Hanson, Marv Dunphy.
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Post by ncaavballguru on Jan 30, 2015 5:15:14 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I think Al Scates the man is a pretty cool dude, but the arrogance and cockiness through the decades weren't necessary.
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Post by ucsdfan on Jan 30, 2015 11:34:34 GMT -5
Yeah, whatever. I've watched more than enough UCLA men's volleyball through the decades to have my own opinion. What specifically did Al Scates do for men's volleyball that was so earth-shattering? He coached for 40 plus years at UCLA, most of it in a part-time position, ran some summer camps, put on a few tournaments here and there, and won a ton of collegiate titles in an era when there were maybe 3 to 4 other true contenders in the men's college game every season, and basically got the best recruits every year from the early 60's to about the early 90's by selling UCLA's "tradition". There's a lot of other guys from that era would have done just as much as Scates minus the arrogance and attitude. Tom Tait, Don Shondell, Arnie Ball, Pete Hanson, Marv Dunphy. Don't get me wrong, I think Al Scates the man is a pretty cool dude, but the arrogance and cockiness through the decades weren't necessary. I wasn't good enough to play at UCLA either. I understand where you are coming from. And given that you watched a lot of UCLA volleyball, I suppose I should consider your post over the things people I've known have had to say about playing there. No one is denying Scates's arrogance and the fact his son played elsewhere speaks volumes. But he's loyal to a fault, respectful of what people have done for him, and a ball of energy that forced the issue n terms of promoting NCAA mens volleyball. As people, I like Marv Dunphy and Pete Hanson much more, but I'm not sure they (or Ball, or Shondell, or Tait) would have steamrolled the NCAA to make it happen. Hate Scates as much as you wish, queston how good of a coach he really was, and call him arrogant if you feel better doing it. But be fair and see what he has done for his sport and the loyalty he shows with things like the Kilgour cup. Acknowledge that some of the nicest people to ever play there speak highly of the character of the man, even ones with limited court time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 12:22:10 GMT -5
Before comparing the two men in terms of classiness, it should be noted that because men's vb is/was such a small sport, it's hard to miss an individual's foibles. They'll be well known. With Coach K, do you really get to see his behavior? What do you see/know that isn't media provided? Are you aware that he can have a serious potty-mouth and chew out a player no different than a drill sergeant dressing down a recruit in basic training? The media has great power.
A baseball example--at spring training, I saw Mark McGuire signing a ton of autographs and smiling. As soon as the TV cameras left, McGuire stopped and left. Canseco was refusing to sign anything and left--with cameras showing him walking away from kids. The cameras didn't follow him to the hotel where he then rented the hotel restaurant and paid for eat-all-you-can-eat ice cream for every kid currently staying at the hotel...away from the cameras. Yet McGuire (until the roids) was considered a great person and Canseco a jerk.
I don't know Scates or Coach K directly--but we should keep things in perspective regarding perception.
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Post by guest2 on Feb 1, 2015 6:43:29 GMT -5
Well, personally, I think Coach K's accomplishment dwarfs anything Scates did. Coach K played everybody. Scates played the same teams and beat up the same teams every year. Coach K's teams at Duke (and, I'll assume, at Army) were a reflection of his own personal behavior and philosophy. Classy, great sportsmanship, honored the game. How many times after a tough loss has Coach K been interviewed and had nothing but praise for his opponent that just defeated his team? Scates' teams were always arrogant jerks. Who can forget Eric Sullivan throwing his runner-up trophy in the trash can after UCLA lost to Penn State in 1994? Or Nygaard sulking during the award presentation with his arms folded and wearing his ugly-ass flannel shirt over his game jersey during the entire presentation? Everyone think's Karch is godlike now because he won 3 Gold Medals and coached the USA Women to their first-ever FIVB gold medal in major competition. Truth is, Karch was an arrogant jerk (along with most of his teammates from that era) while he was UCLA. The idea that Duke's players are all upstanding good citizens is a media creation that doesn't pass the smell test. It is also largely based on the fact that Duke has a lot of white players. The player most associated with Duke, Christian Laettner, was a whiny jerk and defrauded his business partners. Carlos Boozer, another Dukie, lied to Cleveland in order to get out of his contract. There are many other examples: Danny Ferry is currently on suspension from the NBA for racism. Lance Thomas, Corey Maggette, Chris Duhon and others were making a lot of money while playing at Duke JJ Reddick driving drunk Tommy Amaker lying to his players I understand how judging a person on the color of their skin, or defrauding your employer isnt as bad as wearing a flannel shirt, but it is somewhat comparable. Also Duke's teams have often played dirty, Laettner, Henderson, etc. The difference is that dirty players who happen to be white are considered "crafty" like John Stockton, whereas dirty players who aren't are considered dirty. Coach K himself took two Duke players that didnt deserve to go to the World Championships this year, Kyrie Irving and soon to be career backup Mason Plumlee, while leaving far superior players at home. |
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