rook
Sophomore
Posts: 180
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Post by rook on Mar 18, 2015 23:09:59 GMT -5
The issue in our case is pretty simple, actually. We have a contract the parents and players alike sign that lays out everything, including financial obligations, coaches being in charge of playing time, etc. The thing is that the team only had 9 players on it (we budget for 10, so this team was already "losing money"), they were just mad because one of her teammates in her same position was playing 6 rotations and she was only playing 2.5, and she didn't serve much because the girl she went in for has the best serve on the team. They of course blamed the coach and said they didn't like his coaching style, etc, but for the most part the rest of the parents have been happy with the season. They still have 1/3 or their payment left. Have you handed them a polite letter telling them the payment is overdue and the money is already budgeting and committed? If you do not receive payment, the daughter cannot play or practice? I would do that, and talk to them. If they are responsive, problem solved. If they are jerks, I would consider the small claims court thing. We have sent them a letter. Technically their last payment isn't due until April, so we are a little ways from small claims court. But they didn't make their March 1 payment either; I think they were anticipating that their daughter was going to quit, which she did. Just trying to gather information from those who may have been through this before. My guess is they won't pay. |
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Post by newenglander on Mar 19, 2015 7:48:17 GMT -5
You don't pay for playing time. You pay for training time. Just because half of the kids showed up in the gym doesn't mean that the rate is 1/2 price. If you only went to half of your college courses, would your school let you off with half tuition, or if you only sat in the drivers seat of your 4 seat car, would you get a reduction in the purchase price? Let's flip that around... the kid is taking driver's ed and doesn't get to drive, just take the classes and observe the other (presumably "better") kids drive... would you expect to pay full price? Hey, and I'm a club director. |
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Post by pklaboeuf on Mar 19, 2015 8:45:44 GMT -5
You don't pay for playing time. You pay for training time. Just because half of the kids showed up in the gym doesn't mean that the rate is 1/2 price. If you only went to half of your college courses, would your school let you off with half tuition, or if you only sat in the drivers seat of your 4 seat car, would you get a reduction in the purchase price? Let's flip that around... the kid is taking driver's ed and doesn't get to drive, just take the classes and observe the other (presumably "better") kids drive... would you expect to pay full price? Hey, and I'm a club director. I dont feel like that is the same, The club I coached with has a player/parent agreement that everyone signs and a coach's agreement. The player/ parent agreement states that training time will be equal, match playing time is not promised. The coach's agreement states that every player gets equal training. Every player gets an equal shot to learn in practice, but the coach can decide whether or not each player can help the team win during match play. |
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Post by bigfan on Mar 19, 2015 10:17:45 GMT -5
This club training sounds like it is a real pain in the ass. Please educate me, WHY do you run these things?
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Post by gigibear on Mar 19, 2015 11:49:56 GMT -5
Have you handed them a polite letter telling them the payment is overdue and the money is already budgeting and committed? If you do not receive payment, the daughter cannot play or practice? I would do that, and talk to them. If they are responsive, problem solved. If they are jerks, I would consider the small claims court thing. We have sent them a letter. Technically their last payment isn't due until April, so we are a little ways from small claims court. But they didn't make their March 1 payment either; I think they were anticipating that their daughter was going to quit, which she did. Just trying to gather information from those who may have been through this before. My guess is they won't pay. A club is a business. And all businesses must factor in they will have certain losses or accounts receivables that they will never recoup from. This fact should be factored into your income/expense ratio; your profit and loss margin. If everybody pays, you're in luck and can put the excess in an investment portfolio. I own a business and factor in the bounced checks, the slow pays, and the no pays. Your accountant will know what to do with this for tax season. Next season, be prudent....the kid that is not going to get any play time on the court (cause you know early on they will not develop as quickly as some other kid) is a family that is a higher risk of quitting and non payment. Then comes other decisions: do I ask for more down payment, is a sliding scale payment system feasible (set it up where you get the bulk of the money in the beginning of the season and less towards the end), do I play little Sally enough so that family feels the club is a good value, do I only accept players whose parents have deep pockets. If you want that stud who has little funds, set up a scholarship system or have the family or player work it off at the club in some capacity. If the sum of money owed is signficant, then small claims may be worth the effort, but if it's nominal and writing it off makes good tax sense, move on. Life is too short to sweat people for chump change just cause you want to get even or make a point. |
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Post by redbeard2008 on Mar 19, 2015 14:28:37 GMT -5
Are there ever any cases in which players/parents are justified in withdrawing before the end of a season? Of course depends if you are the player/parent or the club.... Season ending injury, family relocation, loss or reduction of income, death of person paying..... I've known a few clubs that will let the player leave and move up another player from one of its other teams. Our region allows movement to other clubs even past first tournament play. What I find distasteful is a club having 13, 14 girls on one team, knowing full well girls past #10 won't see the court unless there are muliple injuries to players 1 - 9, tell player and parent that if player works hard in practice they will earn their spot on the court, knowing full well at time of signing of contract, coach has already decided who their starting line up will be. Uneducated parents not knowing the business model for many clubs, that player 10 - 14 are financing the court play of said players 1-9. That is when the s***t hits the fan and parents start wanting their money back or out of the contract. Clubs should take a hit if they cannot truthfully tell the parents/players the player will be at most a practice player. Some families okay with it, some not, just let them have that information before locking everybody in contract. Parents could claim the club didn't live up to the terms of the contract and or verbal representations that were made. That's probably why more of these cases don't end up in court - just sending it to collections is probably the safer route. |
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Post by newenglander on Mar 19, 2015 15:30:35 GMT -5
I'll have to agree with others (and please disagree with me if you think I'm wrong)... it's hard to take 12+ players on a roster and get everyone reasonable playing time. Are clubs taking that many on a roster just to make more money or is the price per player lower for a 12 player roster than a 10 player roster?
Why would anyone take a player on a roster that you don't feel will get time and contribute unless it's just to take their money and not give them what they are expecting in return?
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Post by volleyguy on Mar 19, 2015 17:10:09 GMT -5
Best solution? Let it go. You may win a judgment in small claims but it will be left to you to collect if you do, and if the parents are of a mind, they can mount a defense vis-a-vis unkept promises regarding their daughters playing time, skills improvement, whatever. Very possible the Judge would do something along the lines of: they paid half the fee and they played half the season, so call it even. Would you like parents to start suing you if you don't live up to their interpretation of your promises to them regarding playing time, skills improvements, etc? You don't pay for playing time. You pay for training time. Just because half of the kids showed up in the gym doesn't mean that the rate is 1/2 price. If you only went to half of your college courses, would your school let you off with half tuition, or if you only sat in the drivers seat of your 4 seat car, would you get a reduction in the purchase price? The argument that you are setting up is difficult to overcome in order to receive a judgment in your favor. By your own admission, they are charged for training time, and it appears that they didn't receive the training time that you are expecting them to pay for (because they quit). What you are actually asking for is a punitive award for breaking the contract, not actual compensation for a service you provided and for which you were not paid. In the future, you could include a specific clause in your contract signed by the parties specifying that a breach of the contract by the athlete will result in a specific penalty, e.g. a payment equivalent to the balance due if the contract were fulfilled, or a specific amount, say $500 or $1000, depending on the timeframe. In a contract, these amounts are known as liquidated damages. You should probably consult an attorney in your area if you decide to do this. |
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Post by StuffU on Mar 19, 2015 18:37:22 GMT -5
If you've ever been involved in litigation or arbitration you would understand......................... Please tell me you are joking................you go to court over this? Let it go. Have them pay up front. This is a broken record.................NO PAY UPFRONT = NO PLAY AT ALL! Yes, you are a broken record. Same response over and over. We got it. |
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Post by bigfan on Mar 19, 2015 18:38:51 GMT -5
Please tell me you are joking................you go to court over this? Let it go. Have them pay up front. This is a broken record.................NO PAY UPFRONT = NO PLAY AT ALL! Yes, you are a broken record. Same response over and over. We got it. Glad you agree with me! |
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Post by cvbc14 on Mar 20, 2015 15:27:45 GMT -5
Let's flip that around... the kid is taking driver's ed and doesn't get to drive, just take the classes and observe the other (presumably "better") kids drive... would you expect to pay full price? Hey, and I'm a club director. I dont feel like that is the same, The club I coached with has a player/parent agreement that everyone signs and a coach's agreement. The player/ parent agreement states that training time will be equal, match playing time is not promised. The coach's agreement states that every player gets equal training. Every player gets an equal shot to learn in practice, but the coach can decide whether or not each player can help the team win during match play. We also have a meeting at the beginning of the year where the club director says this exact same thing. When I send out my very first email to the team I spell out that playing time will not be equal... Middles will most likely play 3 or 3.5 rotations, liberos will play 5 or 5.5 rotations. Everything else from there is determined on how training goes. When we have our first meeting with the team I reiterate with the players and the parents that playing time will not be equal. The parents are paying for training time, and that the coaches will determine playing time. Our club director backs us up on this 100%. I purposely do not do any private lessons during club season and I discourage my assistants from doing any with the kids on our team as well because I don't want to be favoring any particular player. I always tell my kids that if there is something that they are really wanting to work on and they feel that they are not getting enough reps with that skill in practice to come talk to me and we will build it into drills. Sometimes no matter what you do as a coach or club director, people are not going to be happy. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 15:53:25 GMT -5
Sometimes no matter what you do as a coach or club director, some people are not going to be happy. FTFY. An important lesson in life. The more important part is to make sure that you are not changing your actions because of the advice/complaints/comments of the vocal minority. |
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Post by bigfan on Mar 20, 2015 18:01:41 GMT -5
How much does this cost to play? ball park figure?
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Post by vbct3 on Mar 21, 2015 9:31:31 GMT -5
The lesson here is to acknowledge that there will be losses in any fiscal year.
Offset the potential loss by front-loading payments with their initial deposit to be larger than the remaining payments within the payment plan. The final payment in the payment plan being the smallest to minimize potential losses.
Justify the larger initial deposit to the parents by discussing the fact that there are up-front sunk-costs that come early in the season. Ie. Purchasing uniforms & equipment, renting facility space for try-outs, paying coaches for try-outs, tournament entry fees.
The above is probably the best route you can go to minimize losses. Have player/parents sign their agreements upon accepting an offer to join a team. Have any payment plans agreed upon in writing. Play the card of being the "nice guy" in the situation, with the payment plan being a courtesy, not a default. Give parents advanced notice that their next installment payments are coming up. Give follow-ups. And more follow-ups. And polite direct messages. Then polite snail-mail messages. Then passive aggressive messages.
It's actually quite amazing what sending a paper bill to their house can do for you. E-mails are easy to ignore. Paper letters with "FINAL NOTICE" on them work wonders.
The worst thing you can do, in a business that is affected heavily by word-of-mouth, is become "the club that sues its players."
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Post by vbprisoner on Mar 21, 2015 10:41:07 GMT -5
How much does this cost to play? ball park figure? It depends on several factors (level of team, # of tournaments, etc.) below is a range for Texas for 2014 among the larger clubs. It could be a little more or less in other areas of the country.
Top or National level team: (College recruiter watch these tournaments and teams) 1. Teams 16-18 age group $3,500-$5,000 depending on # tournaments (fee does not include player travel) - most expensive because more hours training, more travel/overnight tournaments. 2. Teams 13-15 age group $3,000-$4,000 3. Teams 11-12 age group $2,000-$3,000
Regional level teams can range in price between $1,500 and $2,500 depending on the age and # of tournaments, but tournaments are regional or metro level and participate in the local region National Qualifier at the Club or American division.
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