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Post by Garand on Apr 12, 2015 10:06:06 GMT -5
Since we're in the spring doldrums, I'd like to hear some thoughts on the ideal characteristics of a floater serve and compare those with what I've heard described as a "hybrid" serve. My understanding is that a good floater travels within a narrow range of speed, usually stated as around 35 mph or 50 fps, and with just the very slightest rotation, maybe one rotation during its entire traverse. My simplistic understanding of an ideal topspin serve is (somehow) maximum velocity with maximum topspin.
I've become confused over the last few years as I read occasionally about a "hybrid" serve - part floater, part topspin, and I am at a loss to understand how a serve can be both. It seems that the specific requirements of each should make any compromise ineffective. I've never actually seen a serve that I would call a hybrid - but I've seen lots that were just poorly executed topspins or floaters. Thoughts?
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moody
Banned
Posts: 18,679
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Post by moody on Apr 12, 2015 10:37:26 GMT -5
uses both gas and electric
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Post by SuperSpike on Apr 12, 2015 11:20:24 GMT -5
Since we're in the spring doldrums, I'd like to hear some thoughts on the ideal characteristics of a floater serve and compare those with what I've heard described as a "hybrid" serve. My understanding is that a good floater travels within a narrow range of speed, usually stated as around 35 mph or 50 fps, and with just the very slightest rotation, maybe one rotation during its entire traverse. My simplistic understanding of an ideal topspin serve is (somehow) maximum velocity with maximum topspin. I've become confused over the last few years as I read occasionally about a "hybrid" serve - part floater, part topspin, and I am at a loss to understand how a serve can be both. It seems that the specific requirements of each should make any compromise ineffective. I've never actually seen a serve that I would call a hybrid - but I've seen lots that were just poorly executed topspins or floaters. Thoughts? Hybrid serves, in my experience are jump serves from a higher two hand float toss. It looks like a jump floater so you can bait people into a more shallow/mobile base than a deeper/stable base. Then fire a flat deep rocket with a little topspin that's easier to get in than a 45mph floater. So I think it can be used as a change-up that allows you to bait people into a worse pre-pass setup. Most college players only use one type of serve though and colleges scout serves so this particular 'tricky' part of a hybrid may not be as useful as say, post college play with no scouting. That's what I think of with people saying 'I'm going to use a hybrid'. However, there are some jump servers who will occasionally get a contact that creates a 'hybrid serve' to sail across the net. I think of Logan Tom and Clay Stanley with these blasted top-spin (verying rotation) serves. The problem with them as a passer is that if you've done millions of reps and know swings/trajectories very well, you may beat yourself on a high velocity serve like that where you feel the need to move immediately on a confident read that turns out to be wrong as the hand contact sails the ball at your biceps (deeper than you could have sworn it would go). So I think there is deception, trying to get people at the wrong base, I think there is variation in a topspin (don't know how much is intentional with Logan or Stanley), and lastly I think there are servers (does bricking serve a hybrid?) who everyone knows will serve a blasted, flat, fast, deep hybrid, and it is still really tough because it can be controlled pretty accurately and deep from that 2 hand toss. 'Tricky changeup', 'topspin gone wrong (or intentional contact variation)', 'Blasted two hand, this is my serve, hybrid' That's how I think of it and they each have benefit. Few coaches set out to make someone a hybrid server though. |
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Post by kokyu on Apr 12, 2015 12:39:48 GMT -5
The only difference between a traditional jump topspin and a hybrid jump topspin is the primary point of contact on the ball. If the energy of the swing is focused on the ball's central axis it will cause the ball to 'reverberate' (float) while the follow through of the swing adds topspin and speed. Obviously hitting the hybrid bullseye is much easier when you're not swinging as hard as possible which is why the best hybrid servers don't swing as hard as the best topspin servers.
Once in a while I'll get lucky on my traditional jump serve, usually when I 'overtoss' the ball forcing me to rush and extend to get on top the ball I'll hit the bullseye unintentionally and you know immediately after contact you've aced the best passer even if they don't have to move their platform in reception. When you're hitting at or close to professional men's speeds the float in a hard serve doesn't express itself until right before contact with the receivers arms, which is why you know they won't have time to react. But any great passer experienced against this type of serve will be looking out for it even if the best outcome is a high shank ball or overpass.
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Post by Coach John on Apr 13, 2015 2:28:08 GMT -5
I've become confused over the last few years as I read occasionally about a "hybrid" serve - part floater, part topspin, and I am at a loss to understand how a serve can be both. I personally don't like the term "hybrid" for just that reason. Hybrid implies some kind of combination and you clearly can't have a combination spin/float serve. In talking with a professional team coach friend, though, I was told what they basically are talking about when using the term hybrid is the approach/toss being such that the server could go for either a float or a spin. What that really means is what's been suggested above. The approach/toss is one that is generally more akin to what you'd expect for a spin serve (higher, further in front), but with the server choosing whether to make spin or float contact. The receivers, therefore, won't know what type of serve is coming. |
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Post by vbman100 on Apr 13, 2015 8:15:08 GMT -5
I would describe what Sam Bricio from USC does as a hybrid, and what Lauren Wicinski from Michigan State used a couple years ago as a hybrid. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I consider it. Anyone agree/disagree?
So if you can find video of those 2 serving, that may help clear up what it is.
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Post by kokyu on Apr 13, 2015 11:55:47 GMT -5
I've become confused over the last few years as I read occasionally about a "hybrid" serve - part floater, part topspin, and I am at a loss to understand how a serve can be both. I personally don't like the term "hybrid" for just that reason. Hybrid implies some kind of combination and you clearly can't have a combination spin/float serve. In talking with a professional team coach friend, though, I was told what they basically are talking about when using the term hybrid is the approach/toss being such that the server could go for either a float or a spin. What that really means is what's been suggested above. The approach/toss is one that is generally more akin to what you'd expect for a spin serve (higher, further in front), but with the server choosing whether to make spin or float contact. The receivers, therefore, won't know what type of serve is coming. Shame you, your friend, surely countless other coaches haven't done much less understand hybrids are real. |
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Post by hammer on Apr 13, 2015 12:10:05 GMT -5
uses both gas and electric I think I know where the gas comes from, but not certain about the electrical part. |
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Post by FOBRA on Apr 13, 2015 12:12:19 GMT -5
Watch the break on Bricio's serve, like the one that chests Karly Drolson.
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Post by gobruins on Apr 14, 2015 6:18:47 GMT -5
uses both gas and electric Are you allowed to serve solo in the carpool lane?  |
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Post by ja on Apr 14, 2015 10:47:29 GMT -5
Traditional top spin starts with high toss and attack like contact. On so called "hybrid" the toss is much lower
and you just don't have time for big take off. Point of the contact is much lower, that changes trajectory and ball
goes just above the net. You can also add some side spin on that ball for creating not only forward but also side movement to the ball. This is how Vladimir Kondra served it back in 70.
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Post by Garand on Apr 15, 2015 15:58:19 GMT -5
Okay, so here we are: Some believe that the hybrid is a real thing, others believe that it is only a deceptive delivery move to keep the passers guessing as long as possible about what is coming at them. I can't believe there isn't more of a consensus on this.
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Post by spikeandserve on Apr 15, 2015 21:39:34 GMT -5
Okay, so here we are: Some believe that the hybrid is a real thing, others believe that it is only a deceptive delivery move to keep the passers guessing as long as possible about what is coming at them. I can't believe there isn't more of a consensus on this. Why can't it be both? A service toss and approach that allows for either a jump spin or jump float serve. Occasionally you will see a blended serve that has much less spin than a typical jump serve and is much harder for passers to track...a hybrid serve. |
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Post by vbman100 on Apr 16, 2015 8:14:55 GMT -5
Okay, so here we are: Some believe that the hybrid is a real thing, others believe that it is only a deceptive delivery move to keep the passers guessing as long as possible about what is coming at them. I can't believe there isn't more of a consensus on this. You've been here awhile, you know we can't agree on most things. Especially without it turning into an argument. I am not sure about the 'deception' part. I know what Sam Bricio is going to do, so it is not a surprise. But the consistent rotation of the ball, or lack thereof, is what is difficult. Now if it is someone you have never played against, or someone who does mix it up between float and spin, then maybe it is deceptive. And what determines a float or spin? If it rotates once or more, then is it a spin serve? Only if it rotates over itself (topspin) is it a spin serve? |
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Post by Garand on Apr 16, 2015 12:30:57 GMT -5
My understanding of the physics of serving is that a floater needs a tiny amount of spin to break up the air flow across it so that it floats or wobbles randomly through the air. This occurs best when there is maybe one-half rotation during its entire flight. Too much spin and the "float" effect disappears. Also, too much speed and the float disappears; why that happens is a little complicated, but it is nevertheless the case. So, for the floater, you have a window of both velocity and the amount of spin that produce the best float effect.
A topspin serve needs a great deal of velocity along with a great deal spin in order to dive down onto the court and stay inbounds. However, the energy the server imparts to the ball is always split between forward motion and topspin (translational and rotational energies). More of one, less of the other - energy is always conserved. Unlike the floater, however, the harder the server can hit (more total energy), the more [spin + velocity] she can impart to the volleyball, so I believe that there is no upper limit to the speed and spin such a serve can have, and so no narrow window of effectiveness like the floater. You can hit a floater with too much spin and/or too much spin. Not so with a topspin serve.
I'm curious about what aero-knowledgeable guys like Garrison or Phaedrus have to say about these notions.
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