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Post by hochee on Jul 25, 2015 23:33:11 GMT -5
Are there metrics/best practices, etc wrt measuring defensive range in volleyball? I wonder because one of my favorite players, Natalie Hagglund, makes lots of spectacular plays. Are those plays most others would not make? Or is she just compensating for not being quick enough to get there and have an easier time of it? My gut tells me that in Natalie's case, she is fast and she really does anticipate extraordinarily well, so she gets to more balls and makes plays others don't (digs and covers) . But that's just my gut -- is there a more objective way to measure? It also got me to wondering -- do you punish a player for ball handling errors on balls that others wouldn't even get to? We're kind of in proving a negative territory here. A comparison is the center fielder in baseball -- is it fair to charge a guy with an error if he mishandles/doesn't make the catch on a ball none of his peers could even reach??
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Post by VBCOACH on Jul 26, 2015 5:46:15 GMT -5
I think that it's because she's out of position a lot.
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Post by hochee on Jul 26, 2015 14:24:41 GMT -5
That is totally believable. but my eye is not sharp enough to see that right off. And the possibility of that being true is why I'm skeptical of one player flying all over the place out of proportion to others. It's great she's putting in the effort, etc...but not so great if she is just compensating for being out of position. Entertaining? Yes.
So... add positioning to speed and anticipation as variables in determining range.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 27, 2015 16:59:04 GMT -5
Are there metrics/best practices, etc wrt measuring defensive range in volleyball? I wonder because one of my favorite players, Natalie Hagglund, makes lots of spectacular plays. Are those plays most others would not make? Or is she just compensating for not being quick enough to get there and have an easier time of it? My gut tells me that in Natalie's case, she is fast and she really does anticipate extraordinarily well, so she gets to more balls and makes plays others don't (digs and covers) . But that's just my gut -- is there a more objective way to measure? It also got me to wondering -- do you punish a player for ball handling errors on balls that others wouldn't even get to? We're kind of in proving a negative territory here. A comparison is the center fielder in baseball -- is it fair to charge a guy with an error if he mishandles/doesn't make the catch on a ball none of his peers could even reach?? The most basic range metrics in baseball just check to see how many plays a player is involved in compared to the average player at his position. That wouldn't be too hard to use in VB. It's a little complicated because volleyball has more variation in terms of how the defense is set up. Except for the new trend toward infield "shifts", baseball is pretty static in terms of defensive alignments. |
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Post by hochee on Jul 27, 2015 17:23:19 GMT -5
Ya Mike, lots of digs is good but as you say, not definitive because of variable -- defensive setup and dynamics of block/block touch, etc.... In football, there are all kinds of agility and quickness drills. But....none of that translates directly to range. Range involves lots of intangibles and is hard to measure, but I would think the aggregate effect would be insidiously significant for a team where each player has 6-inches more range than average. And there IS an average, but I think only God can measure it. Like for a Middle, I can measure how fast she moves laterally from 4 to 7 to close the block but because of the anticipation aspect, fastest doesn't equate directly to best range/most reliable.
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Post by n00b on Jul 27, 2015 20:30:08 GMT -5
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Post by hochee on Jul 28, 2015 5:54:44 GMT -5
yes thank you :-)
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Post by s0uthie on Jul 28, 2015 12:44:02 GMT -5
I think this is an area where volleyball analytics could progress. It is damn near impossible to objectively determine a "best" libero through numbers alone. We can create metrics and gather a group that would be in the conversation, but there is a lot that we just can't know. The best baseball and basketball teams are using new metrics based on visual tracking data which isn't available to volleyball analysts yet. You can obviously get much more precise numbers this way. DRS is based on tagging every play and assigning it a difficulty rating. Players are rated based on whether they make more of their share of these plays compared to the rest of the league. This task would be monumentally difficult under today's video sharing environment, but I bet there are datavolley guys out there who can say with some degree of certainty who has the best libero in their team's conference. Someone would have to start tagging matches with this new data, assigning a degree of difficulty to the dig. I really liked this article about baseball defense when I read it. Also, it takes some shots at the Yankees, so bonus! grantland.com/features/the-tragedy-derek-jeter-defense/Back to volleyball-I think digs per opportunity can tell us some things, but it needs to be paired with some information about the actual hit location. If teams are getting a lot of outside hitter kills to right-back, this shouldn't count against your libero (unless she's playing over there). If they score on an inordinate amount tips from opposite hitters, this is pretty important. Also, having blockers in the correct location is also extremely beneficial to backrow defense. It would be difficult to control for this simply with digs/opportunity based strictly on numerical stats. More work is needed! To the data!! |
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Post by s0uthie on Jul 28, 2015 15:46:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I've seen all these. Super exciting for stat geeks like me. Just having the data available would be amazing. People still have to parse useful information out of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 21:20:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I've seen all these. Super exciting for stat geeks like me. Just having the data available would be amazing. People still have to parse useful information out of it. Just like a geek to use the word 'parse'. |
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Post by hochee on Jul 29, 2015 7:13:46 GMT -5
Whoa, didn't know this was out there. Speed of offense is readily available. Wonder if this can measure reaction time, i.e., delta between spike contact and defensive player's first move. What about analysis of hitting lanes as determined by angle of approach to set, juxtaposed against block. What a great teaching aid.... as mentioned so many ways to parse but PLENTY of low hanging fruit. |
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Post by hammer on Jul 29, 2015 11:27:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I've seen all these. Super exciting for stat geeks like me. Just having the data available would be amazing. People still have to parse useful information out of it. Just like a geek to use the word 'parse'. Maybe he is a CS major. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 21:04:29 GMT -5
Just like a geek to use the word 'parse'. Maybe he is a CS major. He's tech savvy, but not as savvy as he thinks he is. |
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Post by s0uthie on Jul 30, 2015 13:24:04 GMT -5
He's tech savvy, but not as savvy as he thinks he is.  |
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Post by joetrinsey on Jul 30, 2015 16:05:38 GMT -5
We do this for USA:
1. Chart all balls attacked.
2. What % of balls does this player dig hit in her zone? (ie, hit to Zone 5 if she's left-back)
3. How often does a player dig a ball out-of-zone?
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