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Post by volleyballer4life on Jul 30, 2015 9:23:14 GMT -5
(The "automatic Division 1 scholarship" line is a joke. To pretend like their top girls wouldn't have the opportunity to play Division I if they went to another top-tier club in the region is a slap in the face to the work ethic/physical talents of the individuals that fill those top teams). I don't believe anyone said their top girls wouldn't play D1 if they went to another top tier club. Since you clearly know Midwest volleyball you know girls leave their top teams around 16's all the time and are successful elsewhere. That's not really the point though. The guarantee your kid gets their college paid for with D1 scholarships applies to all seniors graduating the program, not just the top kids. That fact isn't somehow meant to be a "slap in the face" to other programs. I have the utmost respect for 1st Alliance, Sky High, Fusion, etc. I've got countless good friends at those places. The more programs who can guarantee their kids scholarships the better. It's fantastic for the sport. "The more programs who can guarantee their kids scholarships the better." I didn't want to hijack the thread that shall not be named although with the direction it's gone, maybe it would have been for the better. But the idea of the "guaranteed athletic scholarship" is something I felt was worth discussing. I'd like to start by saying I think there are more good than bad clubs out there. But like parents, the loudest ones typically are the ones we hear about, and some of the clubs that are the most aggressive with their marketing are the ones that raise concern. I take issue with telling an OH with a 9'2 jump touch that they are going to be guaranteed a Division 1 scholarship because she plays for X club. Telling kids that if they have the athletic ability and work ethic that they can get the athletic scholarship and that you'll help them along the way is one thing, but not addressing the potential of burnout/injury and that there is a 'guarantee' by joining their organization isn't being completely straightforward with parents/players. There are so many hardworking players that simply don't have the athletic attributes it takes to obtain a Division I scholarship, yet while we offer them this bright future we don't mention that there are just under 430,000 high school girls playing high school volleyball and there are less than 6,000 volleyball athletic scholarships for 4-year schools. The club being discussed obviously has a system that can better prepare athletes for the next level, but guarantee is a strong word. Does this guarantee address all the kids that are given that promise early in their careers, but don't stay with the program because they don't like the environment or the grind itself? You can't take credit for all the scholarships the scholarship athletes earn and then not take some of the blame for the burnout if the kids burnout. If you aren't a certain kind of athlete with a certain kind of work ethic, there is no name on the front of the jersey that will guarantee you an athletic scholarship. Club A may be able to help a player more than Club B, but the athlete has a lot more to do with it than I feel we want to put out there. Some of the most aggressive clubs when it comes to marketing do so with a simple equation. They show all of the tournament victories, but their regional teams that don't make it out of pool play never seem to have their results posted. Kids that make it to college are posted on the website and social media, but there's no list of kids (who FAR outweigh the college athletes) that do a couple years and end up fizzling out. We market our programs like a kid that tells someone "I had 10 kills tonight!" without mentioning the 10 hitting errors or 40 total attempts. We wonder why parents lose their mind when they spend thousands of dollars a year to send their kid to a club that boasts championships and college placement, only to see their kid sit the bench and not win tournaments. The organizations which market their programs in a manner that implies responsibility with success without a clear-cut way for parents/players to measure it versus all the teams/players that don't do as well are essentially using smoke and mirrors to promote a culture that isn't offered across the board for their athletes. From a business perspective, I get it. It'd be naive to not recognize the boom juniors has had from a profitability perspective over the last couple decades, and the system works. However, I think we have a lot more to do with causing the crazy than we admit. To me, the solution is more transparency with families, and to put more accountability on the individuals. The top-tier clubs have earned the right to boast championships/college scholarships, but they should also talk about the work the athletes put in, both when they're at the club AND on their own, and that a scholarship is a privilege, not a right. They should also address the reality that the demand far exceeds the supply, and that while their odds are better than the norm at their club, nothing is a guarantee. I always liked the line my father got when he went to his teacher to complain about a grade he gave him: "I didn't give you the grade, you earned it". There are many clubs that are straightforward with this information, but we still have a long way to go, and quotes like the above reflect this. What are your thoughts on the subject? I'd especially like to hear from current college coaches/club directors on this one.
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Post by sevb on Jul 30, 2015 9:40:17 GMT -5
For a club to assume that the best fit for that athlete will be D1 is unfortunate... it only benefits the club. At that point they get to say "look at all our kids going D1".
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Post by vbman100 on Jul 30, 2015 9:57:29 GMT -5
I don't believe anyone said their top girls wouldn't play D1 if they went to another top tier club. Since you clearly know Midwest volleyball you know girls leave their top teams around 16's all the time and are successful elsewhere. That's not really the point though. The guarantee your kid gets their college paid for with D1 scholarships applies to all seniors graduating the program, not just the top kids. That fact isn't somehow meant to be a "slap in the face" to other programs. I have the utmost respect for 1st Alliance, Sky High, Fusion, etc. I've got countless good friends at those places. The more programs who can guarantee their kids scholarships the better. It's fantastic for the sport. "The more programs who can guarantee their kids scholarships the better." I take issue with telling an OH with a 9'2 jump touch that they are going to be guaranteed a Division 1 scholarship because she plays for X club. That kid probably gets cut from the club at some point a few years before their 18s season.
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Post by Semp12 on Jul 30, 2015 10:13:26 GMT -5
I am not sure how I feel about that whole, "clubs need to say it takes hard work" theory. You can say all day that high level club may not be for everyone, and it takes a ton of hard work with the risk of burnout, but parents are not going to think that you are talking about their kid. Their kid is a hard worker, their kid has the ability to compete at the highest level, be the best player, earn a scholarship, etc etc. Even when talking about playing time; you say it at the meeting, have them sign they understand, and there still are some issues with why their kid has more of a limited role.
Especially at the highest level of club volleyball, I don't think anyone is surprised with how much the commitment is.. Maybe the next tier down (the teams not winning bids to Open nationals, or any bids for that matter) then the lines may become a little more blurred with some clubs on commitment if they really are poor communicators.
I'm in a part of the country that isn't regularly sending girl's club teams to Open Nationals. Girl's play DI, but you probably aren't getting full teams worth of DI top conference athletes. We certainly broadcast our athlete signings. We tell them we can help put them in line for scholarships. We don't use the guaranteed DI scholarship line, but I do believe if a kid from our club wanted a scholarship to play volleyball, with nothing else mattering (school, location, level) that we could probably find them one somewhere for some amount.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jul 30, 2015 13:44:08 GMT -5
They're just telling gullible parents what they want to hear. If they don't, those parents will just go to another club that will. It is simply a "sound business decision". I have to believe that the "guarantee" is not unconditional ("if she works hard and progresses as we expect") and includes Div-II scholarships. In some cases, being an invited walk-on to a top-drawer school (especially if academic aid is available) can be better than getting a scholarship to a bottom-drawer school.
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Post by trollhunter on Jul 30, 2015 13:55:23 GMT -5
I think some of you may be forgetting that there are plenty of low level DI schools that are not fully funded and use the DII partial scholarship model.
So SPRI may be able to get the OH touching 9'2" a scholarship (partial) at one of those DI schools. Especially if she is well trained, has good ball control, can hit to a variety of spots, etc.
Note that many kids/parents want to say they are playing "DI" even if it is SWAC, Patriot, or Northeast Conference. Never mind that many DII and NAIA teams are stronger.
Also note that many kids/parents want to say they are "on scholarship" even if it is a partial and they could go to a state school as a walk-on for less net cost.
As Redbeard said differently, it is merely supply filling demand.
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Post by onfiya on Jul 30, 2015 14:27:02 GMT -5
Just a quick look at the SPVB site shows that they have 34 girls that are going to play ball in college in 2015. Many of them at NON DI schools and who knows how many are "full rides". Since they have 8 teams for the 18s age group, I'm guessing not all received the promised DI full ride. I'm sure that is some ill-advised parent who made that up, instead of a club standard. Maybe their top team or top two teams...
Just doing the math, with NCAA limits of 12 full scholies for DI and dividing that by 4 (years), makes an average of 3 girls per year, per fully funded program, which all are not. If you take an average of 3 a year and multiply that by the number of DI programs you would come out somewhere shy of 1,100 freshman each year receiving a full-ride. In reality, it's probably less than a thousand girls in the entire country. Pretty special accomplishment. If the 90 some odd SPVB girls all got a DI full ride, for completing the program, like the parent suggested, that would be almost 10% of all of them. Then we would really have a story!
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Post by onfiya on Jul 30, 2015 14:48:09 GMT -5
Gotcha. Impressive any way you look at it...
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Post by volleyballer4life on Jul 30, 2015 16:16:26 GMT -5
'100% heading to play college ball' is MUCH different than 'automatic Division 1 scholarship', which was the what the original post was directly related to. This was not made to be a SPRI-exclusive topic. A poster used the term and I felt it was something worth discussing.
I have not sat in on all the meetings so I don't pretend to know what's promised and what isn't. But I do know that as a whole, many parents in the juniors volleyball community have very limited knowledge on the reality of their options/college scholarships. Many of them have been given skewed information from recruiting agencies (You're way behind in the process, and we'll get you caught up for a fee), high school coaches (You should play for Club A over Club B, when HS coach has ties to club A), college liaisons (I had a kid tell me their club college liaison told them the liaison should contact all the colleges first, not her), and others who either aren't properly educated or have their own agenda. Again, they are a small portion of the community - I've met some INCREDIBLE coaches/directors that go above and beyond to help their local communities to educate them properly. However, some of the more harmful people can have some of the louder voices and to pretend like it isn't happening in various areas of club sports is to turn a blind eye to it.
As one of the responders private messaged me implying I have an axe to grind with specific clubs, I'll just say this: I don't think of clubs as 'good vs bad'. There are kids with a combination of athletic gifts, work ethic, and financial means to play at a top tier club, and they should do so if that's what they enjoy. I know people that have a love for the game but don't come from money and utilize the more cost effective, 2-10 team smaller clubs, and that's a great opportunity for them to play the game (and for the club directors that run their organizations to simply cover costs and offer the opportunity to play our sport to people of all financial backgrounds, bless your heart). For players that may be a step below the 'elite' athletes, but can get a good education of the game from a middle-tier club's top-team coaches, that's a great option for them. My issue is with any individual/organization that tells parents of YOUNG athletes that their services should be viewed as a 'return on investment opportunity'.
Finally, while we can't control if a parent is going to take the 'not MY kid' approach, we do control having a clear-cut philosophy/list of expectations. If they complain down the road about the situation and you've done everything you said you were going to do, then they can be the issue. A wise director once told me "Pretend your parents know nothing about the sport, and give them clear-cut information so that down the road they can't say you didn't tell them X". It's a slippery slope to assume parents understand things, and many first-time club participants are big fish from small ponds: We play a sport that isn't always transparent on what 'high level' truly is. You may not 'reach' every person you address, but why not give parents/players the information?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 18:17:00 GMT -5
I am amazed by anyone that would rank and choose their college based on the division that college competes in. I guess these people would assume that Emory, MIT, Williams, Amherst, NYU, Wellesley etc. provide their daughters with no chance of succeeding in life (all Div. III btw)? There are 324 Division schools for volleyball. Some are great, many are very good, some are good and some are just plain awful and should not be accredited... Your daughter is not going to make the Olympic team. 73 of the 88 women that trained for 3 years with Team USA will not make that team so be realistic. Your daughter is likely not going to play professional volleyball. Make sure she gets something more from college than the ability to say she "played D1" (and her knees/ankle/shoulder/back hurt).
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Post by ja on Jul 30, 2015 22:39:41 GMT -5
This topic makes me puke! I 've been sick from all this "guaranteed promises". I had some serious issues with potential recruits regarding their SAT and GPA. They where told that with her 6'3" she will get "guaranteed DI full schoolie", so train harder and more and you will be the cherry on the top! Such a BS! Who needs girl with 2.5 GPA and 1300 SAT (on 3 subjects)? If she can not keep up her school work at HS, how she will magically do it in the college? The concept of "better club" is also a huge problem! Big clubs worry about money and PR for next year, so they can make more money! How can we do this? Nationals, Qualifiers, Invitational, etc. I counted number of tournaments for couple big clubs in our region. 11-12 tournaments in 5 month period! You can count number of matches. 60 + matches per season. When do those girls will have time and energy to study? When will they have a chance for development? They will overuse their bodies, most of them will get some serious injuries and only few will get coveted scholarship! Parents will pay thousands to clubs and will get nothing in return! I don't even look at another big problem with college students, who actually got this scholarship. In pursuit of this scholarship so many girls just got plain burn out. On my first practice at new college I had to stop practice, because my players worked like robots. They totally forgot how to PLAY Volleyball, they WORKED Volleyball! It was really hard to watch! When I asked them why they are playing volleyball the answer was "scholarship"! They di not play because they love volleyball or because they have fun playing volleyball, no because of scholarship!
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 31, 2015 7:05:20 GMT -5
I am amazed by anyone that would rank and choose their college based on the division that college competes in. I guess these people would assume that Emory, MIT, Williams, Amherst, NYU, Wellesley etc. provide their daughters with no chance of succeeding in life (all Div. III btw)? Can't get an athletic scholarship to a DIII school, though. For some it may be all about volleyball as a job that pays for school.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 31, 2015 7:06:48 GMT -5
This topic makes me puke! I 've been sick from all this "guaranteed promises". I had some serious issues with potential recruits regarding their SAT and GPA. They where told that with her 6'3" she will get "guaranteed DI full schoolie", so train harder and more and you will be the cherry on the top! Such a BS! Who needs girl with 2.5 GPA and 1300 SAT (on 3 subjects)? If she can not keep up her school work at HS, how she will magically do it in the college? The concept of "better club" is also a huge problem! Big clubs worry about money and PR for next year, so they can make more money! How can we do this? Nationals, Qualifiers, Invitational, etc. I counted number of tournaments for couple big clubs in our region. 11-12 tournaments in 5 month period! You can count number of matches. 60 + matches per season. When do those girls will have time and energy to study? When will they have a chance for development? They will overuse their bodies, most of them will get some serious injuries and only few will get coveted scholarship! Parents will pay thousands to clubs and will get nothing in return! I don't even look at another big problem with college students, who actually got this scholarship. In pursuit of this scholarship so many girls just got plain burn out. On my first practice at new college I had to stop practice, because my players worked like robots. They totally forgot how to PLAY Volleyball, they WORKED Volleyball! It was really hard to watch! When I asked them why they are playing volleyball the answer was "scholarship"! They di not play because they love volleyball or because they have fun playing volleyball, no because of scholarship! Most of us have jobs that we wouldn't always go to if they weren't paying us.
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Post by ja on Jul 31, 2015 9:16:24 GMT -5
This topic makes me puke! I 've been sick from all this "guaranteed promises". I had some serious issues with potential recruits regarding their SAT and GPA. They where told that with her 6'3" she will get "guaranteed DI full schoolie", so train harder and more and you will be the cherry on the top! Such a BS! Who needs girl with 2.5 GPA and 1300 SAT (on 3 subjects)? If she can not keep up her school work at HS, how she will magically do it in the college? The concept of "better club" is also a huge problem! Big clubs worry about money and PR for next year, so they can make more money! How can we do this? Nationals, Qualifiers, Invitational, etc. I counted number of tournaments for couple big clubs in our region. 11-12 tournaments in 5 month period! You can count number of matches. 60 + matches per season. When do those girls will have time and energy to study? When will they have a chance for development? They will overuse their bodies, most of them will get some serious injuries and only few will get coveted scholarship! Parents will pay thousands to clubs and will get nothing in return! I don't even look at another big problem with college students, who actually got this scholarship. In pursuit of this scholarship so many girls just got plain burn out. On my first practice at new college I had to stop practice, because my players worked like robots. They totally forgot how to PLAY Volleyball, they WORKED Volleyball! It was really hard to watch! When I asked them why they are playing volleyball the answer was "scholarship"! They di not play because they love volleyball or because they have fun playing volleyball, no because of scholarship! Most of us have jobs that we wouldn't always go to if they weren't paying us. This is exactly how we are suffer!
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Post by hennosy on Jul 31, 2015 9:24:00 GMT -5
No I am not a fan of "guaranteed scholarships" being offered by clubs, BUT I would think it's easy for SPVB to do so. The club is based in one of the largest cities in America. Also, my guess is that Chicago area (Northern half of Illinois and Indiana, Southern Wisconsin) has 10-15 D I universities in the area. They have brand recognition through out the country. I can't imagine they can't find 30 players from the greater Chicago area who were already D I size and ability before the player walked in the SPVB doors. Add in parents will drive 2-3 hours one way just so the can get a "guaranteed scholarship". They were going to get that scholarship anyway. Now if they were promising a scholarship to a university that is relevant in the world of college volleyball (IE. top 20 annually), I would be impressed.
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