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Post by hateswinter on Aug 3, 2015 12:07:32 GMT -5
Most would go with Karch but I think Sinjin Smith deserves a lot more consideration.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Aug 3, 2015 12:52:26 GMT -5
You take the meat of their careers that overlapped (1980-92) domestically. Sinjin Karch 248 Tourneys 119 120 Wins 84 48.4% Percent 70.5%
This even discounts the 93-96 seasons where Karch won 60 of 93 tournaments.
Not even close. Imagine if Karch didn't play so much indoor in the 80s.
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Post by klazk on Aug 3, 2015 13:49:43 GMT -5
This exact thread was put out there about 5 years ago (previously thought 4, but most have been looking at last post or something). Interesting to see if the results change. SPOILER: Don't click on the link until you have voted/given your thoughts. volleytalk.net/thread/32429/best-male-beach-volleyball-player
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Post by guest2 on Aug 3, 2015 13:55:18 GMT -5
Sinjin was not even the best player on his own team. Mike Dodd also does not belong on the list for the same reason. Hovland was the better player on that team.
The only two players that have a credible case they are better than Karch are Stoklos and Steffes. No one equals Karch for longetivity but prime against prime, I think Randy has a case and Kent does also.
My argument for Randy when both were at their best:
If your team was serving, you would rather have Randy than Karch.
Point scoring starts with the serve (using old school terms here, but the same goes in the modern game when you are serving) Randy had a better floater, maybe the best, and a top 5 jump serve. Karch's serve was generally weak.
+ 1 for Randy.
Randy was the best blocker on tour for years. Karch was an excellent blocker and an excellent defender, but if you had to choose between either Randy at the net or Karch at the net, you would take Randy. Likewise between Randy blocking or Karch defending.
+ 1 Randy.
If the ball was dug by their partner, you absolutely wanted Randy setting it over any player ever. He took balls with his hands that Brian Lewis would bump set, much less Karch.
+1
If they dug the ball, its a wash who you would want hitting. Karch himself once said Randy was the best at hitting off sets he ever saw.
In terms of siding out:
Neither got served in their prime but:
Karch was a much better passer, top 5 in the modern era. Randy was a solid passer, but not one of the greatest.
Big + 1 Karch
Karch may have been a slightly better hitter, but this one is really hard to judge. If you had to serve either you were going to lose. I'm calling it a wash. Even if you give this one to Karch, whats actually more important, given how good both were at siding out, is the next skill.
+ 1 Karch
Karch and Randy in their primes, were always going to spend most of their time as setters, and Randy is the best ever. Karch was a very good setter, but at his best, which I put around 1993 or so, he was maybe the 7th or 8th best setter in the game.
+ 1 Randy
This doesnt take into account some advantages Karch had like speed, the ability to block and dig equally well, etc. but in both players primes, I think Randy was better.
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Post by guest2 on Aug 3, 2015 13:56:06 GMT -5
And maybe Phil if you compare prime to prime
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Post by guest2 on Aug 3, 2015 14:11:14 GMT -5
You take the meat of their careers that overlapped (1980-92) domestically. Sinjin Karch 248 Tourneys 119 120 Wins 84 48.4% Percent 70.5% This even discounts the 93-96 seasons where Karch won 60 of 93 tournaments. Not even close. Imagine if Karch didn't play so much indoor in the 80s. Karch was better than Sinjin, but by 92 Sinjin was done. He got by on reputation and caginess for a little while, but he was 35 then. Really you can only count 1985-1991 because Karch played with Sinjin almost exclusively until then and after that Sinjin was done. In those six years, Karch played 75 and won 22. Sinjin won around 60% I am not disputing Karch was better, he absolutely was, just saying your statistics are very misleading. Also Karch has some very dubious wins in that period. His two Hawaiis and the Manhattan where he and Ricci basically crosses a picket line and beat some old timers.
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Post by ardatak on Aug 3, 2015 15:09:35 GMT -5
And maybe Phil if you compare prime to prime Ask yourself this. If you could play one game with anyone in their prime, who would you play with to maximize your chances of winning?
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Post by guest2 on Aug 3, 2015 15:32:40 GMT -5
And maybe Phil if you compare prime to prime Ask yourself this. If you could play one game with anyone in their prime, who would you play with to maximize your chances of winning? Depends on who you are and the era. If you are a defender in 1988? Stoklos. Blocker in rally? Emmanuel. If you don't know who the other player is? Karch. One thing that I think works against Karch. When was he the best player? 92 and 93 for sure. But what other years was it definitely him? Probably 95 because Kent was out, but 94, 96 and 97 was Kent, or maybe Jose in 1997 Phil can point to a longer run. Stoklos the same. 86-91 was Randy. Phil from late 2007-2008 all the way to last year. thats seven years where the best player was Phil.
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Post by volleyballjim on Aug 3, 2015 16:45:11 GMT -5
Sinjin was not even the best player on his own team. Mike Dodd also does not belong on the list for the same reason. Hovland was the better player on that team. The only two players that have a credible case they are better than Karch are Stoklos and Steffes. No one equals Karch for longetivity but prime against prime, I think Randy has a case and Kent does also. My argument for Randy when both were at their best: If your team was serving, you would rather have Randy than Karch. Point scoring starts with the serve (using old school terms here, but the same goes in the modern game when you are serving) Randy had a better floater, maybe the best, and a top 5 jump serve. Karch's serve was generally weak. + 1 for Randy. Randy was the best blocker on tour for years. Karch was an excellent blocker and an excellent defender, but if you had to choose between either Randy at the net or Karch at the net, you would take Randy. Likewise between Randy blocking or Karch defending. + 1 Randy. If the ball was dug by their partner, you absolutely wanted Randy setting it over any player ever. He took balls with his hands that Brian Lewis would bump set, much less Karch. +1 If they dug the ball, its a wash who you would want hitting. Karch himself once said Randy was the best at hitting off sets he ever saw. In terms of siding out: Neither got served in their prime but: Karch was a much better passer, top 5 in the modern era. Randy was a solid passer, but not one of the greatest. Big + 1 Karch Karch may have been a slightly better hitter, but this one is really hard to judge. If you had to serve either you were going to lose. I'm calling it a wash. Even if you give this one to Karch, whats actually more important, given how good both were at siding out, is the next skill. + 1 Karch Karch and Randy in their primes, were always going to spend most of their time as setters, and Randy is the best ever. Karch was a very good setter, but at his best, which I put around 1993 or so, he was maybe the 7th or 8th best setter in the game. + 1 Randy This doesnt take into account some advantages Karch had like speed, the ability to block and dig equally well, etc. but in both players primes, I think Randy was better. Only problem with the + & = system is they don't weigh the overall value of each and since passing would have to be the most important part of the game (once that nail goes up, the rest is "relatively" (Considering the pro level), easy . . . IMVHO...
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Post by guest2 on Aug 3, 2015 17:36:44 GMT -5
Sinjin was not even the best player on his own team. Mike Dodd also does not belong on the list for the same reason. Hovland was the better player on that team. The only two players that have a credible case they are better than Karch are Stoklos and Steffes. No one equals Karch for longetivity but prime against prime, I think Randy has a case and Kent does also. My argument for Randy when both were at their best: If your team was serving, you would rather have Randy than Karch. Point scoring starts with the serve (using old school terms here, but the same goes in the modern game when you are serving) Randy had a better floater, maybe the best, and a top 5 jump serve. Karch's serve was generally weak. + 1 for Randy. Randy was the best blocker on tour for years. Karch was an excellent blocker and an excellent defender, but if you had to choose between either Randy at the net or Karch at the net, you would take Randy. Likewise between Randy blocking or Karch defending. + 1 Randy. If the ball was dug by their partner, you absolutely wanted Randy setting it over any player ever. He took balls with his hands that Brian Lewis would bump set, much less Karch. +1 If they dug the ball, its a wash who you would want hitting. Karch himself once said Randy was the best at hitting off sets he ever saw. In terms of siding out: Neither got served in their prime but: Karch was a much better passer, top 5 in the modern era. Randy was a solid passer, but not one of the greatest. Big + 1 Karch Karch may have been a slightly better hitter, but this one is really hard to judge. If you had to serve either you were going to lose. I'm calling it a wash. Even if you give this one to Karch, whats actually more important, given how good both were at siding out, is the next skill. + 1 Karch Karch and Randy in their primes, were always going to spend most of their time as setters, and Randy is the best ever. Karch was a very good setter, but at his best, which I put around 1993 or so, he was maybe the 7th or 8th best setter in the game. + 1 Randy This doesnt take into account some advantages Karch had like speed, the ability to block and dig equally well, etc. but in both players primes, I think Randy was better. Only problem with the + & = system is they don't weigh the overall value of each and since passing would have to be the most important part of the game (once that nail goes up, the rest is "relatively" (Considering the pro level), easy . . . IMVHO... Among pros, attacking is actually the most important. You can't be a horrible passer, but elite hitters can be middle of the pack passers and still do fine. Randy, Phil, Hov all did very well despite not being nails passers, they weren't bad at it, but there were many better. Pat Powers won 12 tournaments and he wasn't exactly a ball control wizard. Evandro and Alison have to be on anyone's list of best players in the world right now and neither passes half as well as Nick Lucena, who probably isnt a top 20 player in the world. Who is the best player in the modern era who could be described as a somewhat above average attacker?
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Post by 5280volleyball on Aug 3, 2015 18:27:18 GMT -5
Karch is the greatest hands down when you look at his complete body of work.
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Post by donnyb on Aug 3, 2015 19:20:00 GMT -5
I personally think karch is first with Phil knocking on the doors. Phil was the most dominating player ever!! He was a point scorIng machine and still is. Blocking serving setting attacking he was the best for many of years. Time could flip them is Phil makes another run. Time will tell
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Post by donnyb on Aug 3, 2015 19:23:26 GMT -5
Responding to the ones person comment about playing one game with any one at there prime how could you not pick Phil? With his abilitys to score points
On another knot could you imagine Phil at his prime and karch at his prime playing together??!! Would be the best team ever to step on the court in my opinion
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Post by unrated on Aug 3, 2015 22:40:12 GMT -5
hmmm... ok. big court or short court?
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Post by donnyb on Aug 4, 2015 1:36:24 GMT -5
hmmm... ok. big court or short court? Ether one and Phil still dominates. Could you imagine him serving on a big court.
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