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Post by greenpier on Dec 19, 2017 12:14:40 GMT -5
It is genius. Kerri increases her career win/$ winnings totals, while the "college players" she attracts to play in it with her all have to decline prize money. KWJ is a genius, just ask her and all her Stanford cronies.
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Post by ebes1099 on Dec 19, 2017 15:14:01 GMT -5
Which “some” can or would you please identify that are loyal KW brands? The reason she doesn’t go back to the AVP is because that bridge is burned and Donald doesn’t need a Boss. This is a fact that the VB Old Guard from MB & PP cannot stomach, Sun does not need nor want their help or self serving influences. So they wish to create an apposing force. Great, just do it. Dates, locations, rules, quality officials & prize money. Just the facts please. I don't know for sure, it was speculation. But clearly ABC seems to be heavily tied to KWJ if you look at this interview with Al-B after Kerri got hurt and the NVL folded. "For a number of reasons, ABC unfortunately wanted to have Kerri, and not that that was their sole motivation to be involved in beach volleyball, but Kerri pulls more weight than anybody in the sport, and when that happened, a lot of the footprints and the interest and the excitement, unfortunately, really changed." There's been plenty of occurrences in the past where stars and teams/leagues have clashed and then gone on to reconcile. If KWJ cares so much about the future of volleyball, she should go back hat in hand to Sun and work something out. Sun would be a fool not to leverage that name if she was willing to be a partner. Of course, if neither side is willing to concede, then they can go their separate ways. I, for one, just don't see that as the best option for the future of the sport.
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Post by acemand23 on Dec 19, 2017 15:30:06 GMT -5
looking at history, all major pro sports had 2 competing tours that helped spur growth, which eventually caused mergers... we can only hope that this helps the sport
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Post by guest2 on Dec 19, 2017 15:44:32 GMT -5
Which “some” can or would you please identify that are loyal KW brands? The reason she doesn’t go back to the AVP is because that bridge is burned and Donald doesn’t need a Boss. This is a fact that the VB Old Guard from MB & PP cannot stomach, Sun does not need nor want their help or self serving influences. So they wish to create an apposing force. Great, just do it. Dates, locations, rules, quality officials & prize money. Just the facts please. I don't know for sure, it was speculation. But clearly ABC seems to be heavily tied to KWJ if you look at this interview with Al-B after Kerri got hurt and the NVL folded. "For a number of reasons, ABC unfortunately wanted to have Kerri, and not that that was their sole motivation to be involved in beach volleyball, but Kerri pulls more weight than anybody in the sport, and when that happened, a lot of the footprints and the interest and the excitement, unfortunately, really changed." There's been plenty of occurrences in the past where stars and teams/leagues have clashed and then gone on to reconcile. If KWJ cares so much about the future of volleyball, she should go back hat in hand to Sun and work something out. Sun would be a fool not to leverage that name if she was willing to be a partner. Of course, if neither side is willing to concede, then they can go their separate ways. I, for one, just don't see that as the best option for the future of the sport. Kerri has more value than any other player by a ton, but each day that passes it lessens. The Olympics fade and her remaining career dwindles. A teenage girl inspired by Kerri's London run is now an adult, and probably not showing up just to see her idol beat up on Kendra's even littler sister on an NVL + 1 tour type tour. Of course that also assumes Kerri can jog to the pier and back without her shoulder falling off. (a bet I wouldnt take) Finally, a large part of Kerri's mainstream appeal has always been based on the limited exposure the public has had to her bland, stage-managed Gwyneth-lite personality. Olympic viewers have often seen her at her most sincere (i.e. on court competing) and had very small doses of her at her worst (i.e. speaking). Leonard's biggest challenge may be how to keep Kerri healthy, competing and front and center as a draw, while also mitigating the degree to which her personality rubs people the wrong way.
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Post by geddyleeridesagain on Dec 19, 2017 16:46:45 GMT -5
Color me dubious.
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Post by beavis on Dec 20, 2017 1:24:57 GMT -5
Well said, ebes1099 and Guest2. Have happy and safe holidays, everyone - can't wait until the end of February to head down to Ft. Lauderdale!!!
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Post by earlkoppelman on Dec 20, 2017 3:16:08 GMT -5
Well said, ebes1099 and Guest2. Have happy and safe holidays, everyone - can't wait until the end of February to head down to Ft. Lauderdale!!! Kerri brings positive exposure.That means more new players and money for existing players.HOPE all concerned KNOW this.Basic no?
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Post by mjnaleva on Dec 20, 2017 9:23:52 GMT -5
Does anyone know where the litigation between KWJ and AVP is at?
I've followed the sport long enough to see the ups and downs a few times. My observation is that despite the sport having this fun, mostly relaxed vibe to it...there's a general tendency for people to want to break off and do their own thing at the first whiff of disagreement. It seems to impact both the playing and business side of the sport. I don't know if it's to be expected or if the sport just seems to attract a disproportionate number of highly opinionated, super ego types, who maybe think they know it all or think they can tap into some huge amount of money that has been so elusive to most in the past or what. I think there's little disagreement that the sport is loved by many, but often times it just seems like people say they are trying to grow the game but really are not.
I don't know what to make of the KWJ vs. AVP situation but my initial inclination is that this is another instance of the above. There are plenty of grassroot events around for both juniors and adults now. To me it makes no sense that a little niche sport should have more than 1 true professional tour. With that said, I agree with some others in that the AVP is not big enough at the moment to be a true national tour. Maybe KWJ thinks they can grow more quickly towards being that? I hope it doesn't end up being a tour where almost all the events end up in CA.
From a player standpoint, the structure of a national tour really needs to be setup where players don't have to spend several hundred dollars to just make an event that's halfway or completely on the other side of the country where the goal then end ups being trying to break even mostly.
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Post by volleyballjim on Dec 20, 2017 12:05:11 GMT -5
The AVP is a "classic J curve" trying to reach its tipping point. Yes, I was disappointed there were so few events this year, but I can see the hypothesis: Grow these individual ones and make them "return trips" for fans, get the names out via Amazon's arrangement and add events as you move up the J curve on your fan base size. We all forget the AVP has not been profitable since 1998. We should be hard pressed into "taking sides with KWJ v. D. Sun" until we find out about the facts of the lawsuit. This "hating thing" should be left for the politicians. Regardless, there are probably multiple elements that caused the break. Not sure the advice being given KW, but seems like the AVP is solid, growing, has a plan and is executing it. Unbridled growth on the tour would meet my needs, but would it later cause the AVP to eventually fold, probably. As a businessperson, you have enough events that you can fill the seats with and manage with your resources. Any marketer knows "line extension" kills companies when done for no other reason than to "try and make more money"...
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Walsh tour
Dec 20, 2017 14:04:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by donnyw on Dec 20, 2017 14:04:26 GMT -5
If you read my posts on this board, it may seem as though I favor Kerri, which I do to a certain extent, however I also favor USA Beach Volleyball in general. It does kinda sadden me that the two sides could not settle this disagreement peacefully...But I also know for a fact that Kerri tried several times & was shunned...Is this payback? I am not sure. I believe she truly wants what’s best for this sport. Yes, and I am sure Sun does too. I am in the minority that feel there is enough room for two pro tours in the USA if done correctly. We just don’t have any details yet to make a judgment. The players will need to decide to go where they can make a living or pledge total alliance to the AVP. The lawsuit seems like it will go 50/50...Thats me as a fan looking at the only few facts that are out there.
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Post by volleyballjim on Dec 20, 2017 14:20:09 GMT -5
donnyw: Agreed; wish they could settle which is all a court case is going to do anyway WITH parties walking away with dictated judgements. I would love to analyze each issue, like "the rule change". I kinna get it: Players play internationally under one rule and then come home domestically and alter their play. Other issues with it from KW, "Why were they/her not consulted"? Sounds like a "reasonable idea", but it must be held in context to the greater overall issue: The AVP and its need to make money, increase tour stops, pay to athletes, etc. to sustain and then grow the game. Should the employees run the organization? In some they do. Kerri is the face of beach volleyball, but that obviously has to change at some point I would expect. One problem our sport has is more people probably know/recognize KARCH over the Frishmans, Mayers, Hydens etc. He hasn't played in over a decade. That chasm doesn't exist in other sports, but it does ours. Back to the "consult with the players": Who put the money and LOTS on the line to ressurect this sport? How substantial IS that rule change? What is the perception of fans/players after a full season of its implementation? Etc...There is SO much to one issue and BOTH sides are right, to some extent, but a business must be run and in 10 years looking back nobody is going to be very forgiving if things don't work out well for our sport due to a "bad run of decisions". How good are players at aligning an organization rising like a phoenix? Well, I'll put my money elsewhere....Anyway, hope it doesn't turn into a "Steffes-type" exit and animosity thing, though I am not fully versed in that scenario, but hope "we all win" at some point...
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Post by guest2 on Dec 20, 2017 14:25:42 GMT -5
The AVP is a "classic J curve" trying to reach its tipping point. Yes, I was disappointed there were so few events this year, but I can see the hypothesis: Grow these individual ones and make them "return trips" for fans, get the names out via Amazon's arrangement and add events as you move up the J curve on your fan base size. We all forget the AVP has not been profitable since 1998. We should be hard pressed into "taking sides with KWJ v. D. Sun" until we find out about the facts of the lawsuit. This "hating thing" should be left for the politicians. Regardless, there are probably multiple elements that caused the break. Not sure the advice being given KW, b ut seems like the AVP is solid, growing, has a plan and is executing it. Unbridled growth on the tour would meet my needs, but would it later cause the AVP to eventually fold, probably. As a businessperson, you have enough events that you can fill the seats with and manage with your resources. Any marketer knows "line extension" kills companies when done for no other reason than to "try and make more money"... Its already a Steffes type exit (except Steffes was completely justified by any objective standard) I love the AVP and appreciate what Donald has done in putting in his own money, but I can't imagine what evidence you are using to support the above statement. In six years, the AVP has added a single event and lost its biggest draw. Many of the top players don't treat the AVP as a priority and seem to care little about its fans. Also with a month to prepare and equal partners, Karch could still beat Chase 2-3 times out of 10
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Post by JB Southpaw on Dec 20, 2017 14:33:42 GMT -5
The AVP is a "classic J curve" trying to reach its tipping point. Yes, I was disappointed there were so few events this year, but I can see the hypothesis: Grow these individual ones and make them "return trips" for fans, get the names out via Amazon's arrangement and add events as you move up the J curve on your fan base size. We all forget the AVP has not been profitable since 1998. We should be hard pressed into "taking sides with KWJ v. D. Sun" until we find out about the facts of the lawsuit. This "hating thing" should be left for the politicians. Regardless, there are probably multiple elements that caused the break. Not sure the advice being given KW, b ut seems like the AVP is solid, growing, has a plan and is executing it. Unbridled growth on the tour would meet my needs, but would it later cause the AVP to eventually fold, probably. As a businessperson, you have enough events that you can fill the seats with and manage with your resources. Any marketer knows "line extension" kills companies when done for no other reason than to "try and make more money"... I love the AVP and appreciate what Donald has done in putting in his own money, but I can't imagine what evidence you are using to support the above statement. In six years, the AVP has added a single event and lost its biggest draw. Many of the top players don't treat the AVP as a priority and seem to care little about its fans. Also with a month to prepare and equal partners, Karch could still beat Chase 2-3 times out of 10 1. I think this last year KWJ isn't the main draw. The AVP brand is. Every stop had great attendance. 2. the amount of players who are playing the Qs was very high. Especially the women. Which shows the sport is growing. 3. Jordan could beat half the NBA in one on one right now, when you are the greatest, you are the greatest. I'd rather he take the path he is, than over extend himself. Quality of quantity. I know for fact, this year was very close to having 2 other stops. I think Amazon will help this.
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Post by JB Southpaw on Dec 20, 2017 14:37:10 GMT -5
I'd like to add, I'm not a huge fan of kerri, however I do respect her and her place in beach volleyball. If she does this, the best thing is that it succeeds. The worst is, that it comes off half azzed.
I hope we can get to a place, were the top 25 players in the country of both genders can make a living playing beach.
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Post by guest2 on Dec 20, 2017 14:38:21 GMT -5
I love the AVP and appreciate what Donald has done in putting in his own money, but I can't imagine what evidence you are using to support the above statement. In six years, the AVP has added a single event and lost its biggest draw. Many of the top players don't treat the AVP as a priority and seem to care little about its fans. Also with a month to prepare and equal partners, Karch could still beat Chase 2-3 times out of 10 1. I think this last year KWJ isn't the main draw. The AVP brand is. Every stop had great attendance. 2. the amount of players who are playing the Qs was very high. Especially the women. Which shows the sport is growing. 3. Jordan could beat half the NBA in one on one right now, when you are the greatest, you are the greatest. I'd rather he take the path he is, than over extend himself. Quality of quantity. I know for fact, this year was very close to having 2 other stops. I think Amazon will help this. 2 is true, but does it show the sport is growing as a spectator sport or as a participation sport? VB has always been huge as a participation sport, especially for women, but no one watches it. I don't think it means much that Karch could beat Chase, but he said that it was an issue that Karch was better known than a journeyman player. You could say the same about Russell and Kelly Oubre (in terms of who is known)
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