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Post by volleyguy on Jan 9, 2018 12:06:10 GMT -5
I think the question is whether he can coach and whether he can recruit. And those are very big questions. But I agree with the larger issue: the PAC 12 needs to step it up in terms of women's volleyball. The B1G has shown that it is all in, and will only widen the gap. He took a winless team, won 55 games in four years (only seven in year one), and in two years won the most games since 1991. Say what you will about this hire, but he clearly did something right at Portland. It's been said numerous times in numerous ways, but taking a winless team to respectability (even if that means never being over .500 in conference) isn't the same as taking over a top 10ish program competing in one of the two best conferences in college volleyball. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have great character or even great potential. But at the level that USC should be competing, one of the questions it has to be asking is, what is the level of athlete that the coach has consistently been working with. USC understands this all of this, which is why they included three paragraphs of Karch talking about this guy to distract from the entirety of his record.
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Post by tomclen on Jan 9, 2018 12:26:12 GMT -5
"Oh, Crouch? Okay, never mind!"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 13:07:10 GMT -5
I think you're overrating how much teenage girls value Karch's opinion. He won't be the national team coach by the time they're in the unlikely position to try out for the team. Karch's name means far more to people over 30 than those under 30, especially high school girls. I think you greatly underestimate how much teenage girls of top recruiting age (9th and 10th grade) are star struck and care about the current Olympic team and coach. I think you are greatly overestimating how connected USA Volleyball is with the average junior girls. Very few know who the national team coach is. Fewer could name more than one or two Olympians from Rio. Fewer still could name any significant accomplishment of the coach, team, or individual athletes. Boys grow up watching the NBA or the NFL, so it's relatively normal for a young boy to be able to name 5-10+ professional athletes in their sport. The same is not true for girls. Go to a club tourney and show an athlete a picture of Foluke Akinradewo, one of USAV's most marketed players, and see if they recognize her. You'd be surprised.
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Post by dgo on Jan 9, 2018 13:37:27 GMT -5
I think you are greatly overestimating how connected USA Volleyball is with the average junior girls. Very few know who the national team coach is. Fewer could name more than one or two Olympians from Rio. Fewer still could name any significant accomplishment of the coach, team, or individual athletes. Boys grow up watching the NBA or the NFL, so it's relatively normal for a young boy to be able to name 5-10+ professional athletes in their sport. The same is not true for girls. Go to a club tourney and show an athlete a picture of Foluke Akinradewo, one of USAV's most marketed players, and see if they recognize her. You'd be surprised. If USC is recruiting "average junior girls", then there is a big problem. USC should be recruiting girls with YNT aspirations, and I'd be shocked if there is a HS middle in the country who is that level and doesn't know (and aspire to be) Foluke. I'm with shhhhhhhhhh on this one (a sentence I don't type often). I think you'd be shocked.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 9, 2018 13:44:13 GMT -5
You’re right that most girls don’t even know of Karch Kiraly. True story, when I told my players about Flo Hyman busting records in her day to inspire them, one of my players raised her hand and said her hymen was still intact and she was going to wait until marriage. You told your current players about her? She died over 30 years ago. They would have no idea who she is. She had no career in volleyball after her playing days, coaching or otherwise, for girls today to know her, due to her untimely death. (I always thought she had a very unfortunate name). I don't expect girls today to know Kiraly the player like those of us do who watched him play in his prime. Girls today know him as the olympic coach in the sport they love. The average player may not know him, but the high end recruits with national team aspirations surely know who he is. My daughter freaked out when I met Kiraly at an event. She was too intimidated and wouldn't walk up with me because she knew exactly who he was and what he represented as the head USA coach. Of course Flo Hyman didn't have a career after her playing days--she died during a match. You're sort of proving the point about the draw of USAV. You should also know that any excitement about meeting Karch wears off pretty quickly after the first meeting.
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Post by bayarea on Jan 9, 2018 13:56:55 GMT -5
I think the question is whether he can coach and whether he can recruit. And those are very big questions. But I agree with the larger issue: the PAC 12 needs to step it up in terms of women's volleyball. The B1G has shown that it is all in, and will only widen the gap. He took a winless team, won 55 games in four years (only seven in year one), and in two years won the most games since 1991. Say what you will about this hire, but he clearly did something right at Portland. I was really taken by surprise by this hire, but the more I think about it, I believe he has the personality and the skills to be successful at USC. He completely turned around a not-fully funded Portland program that had languished at the bottom of the WCC for years, and at the same time, St. Mary's went from a top WCC program into a skid after his departure 4 years ago. The players really seem to like him as a person and a coach, and he has a very positive demeanor that I think will appeal to recruits of all levels. Very classy guy, and I've never heard anyone have a bad word about him personally or professionally. I am looking forward to seeing what he does with a roster of more elite talent and wish him the best.
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Post by volleyguy on Jan 9, 2018 14:13:20 GMT -5
Of course Flo Hyman didn't have a career after her playing days--she died during a match. You're sort of proving the point about the draw of USAV. You should also know that any excitement about meeting Karch wears off pretty quickly after the first meeting. You are pretty stubbornly, and intentionally, missing the point. You're comparing the name recognition of a player who died a lifetime before current juniors were born, with the current Olympic star and the current Olympic coach. You are also evaluating and criticizing Kiraly from an entirely different point of view than from a junior girl. The two have nothing in common. I interact regularly with many junior club girls, most of whom aren't my daughter. And I certainly wasn't intentionally missing the point. You made it quite well (just not the point you thought you made.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 14:14:16 GMT -5
I think you greatly underestimate how much teenage girls of top recruiting age (9th and 10th grade) are star struck and care about the current Olympic team and coach. I think you are greatly overestimating how connected USA Volleyball is with the average junior girls. Very few know who the national team coach is. Fewer could name more than one or two Olympians from Rio. Fewer still could name any significant accomplishment of the coach, team, or individual athletes. Boys grow up watching the NBA or the NFL, so it's relatively normal for a young boy to be able to name 5-10+ professional athletes in their sport. The same is not true for girls. Go to a club tourney and show an athlete a picture of Foluke Akinradewo, one of USAV's most marketed players, and see if they recognize her. You'd be surprised. That is so true. I think the younger generations both girls and boys are not so impressed with the previous generations accomplishments. A few years ago I was coaching at a boys hs tournament when Mr. KK himself walked in to assist his sons hs team. As he walked by I asked my guys if they knew who he is. No one had an idea. I gave them a brief history of his accomplishments. Their response: " Who? That guy! You gotta be kidding."
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Post by dgo on Jan 9, 2018 14:18:49 GMT -5
I'm with shhhhhhhhhh on this one (a sentence I don't type often). I think you'd be shocked. You could be right. My experience is limited to a small number of clubs in one region, but among those clubs on Open teams in 15s and up, virtually all know of Kiraly and the middles absolutely all know who Foluke is. In the rest of the country, I guess YMMV. We're talking about USC recruits, so are you saying that girls like Madison Horin who made the YNT and Wilhite who made the YNT training team (plus non-USC recruits like Holly Campbell, Kendall Kipp) don't know who Kiraly is and don't know who Foluke is? Are you clear that I'm talking about girls like that? High end Senior Aces? I guess it depends on how you're defining the group you're talking about. If you're talking about "girls with YNT aspirations," well then yes, I suspect most would know (however, I think you still might be surprised that some would not). If you're talking about "high end Senior Aces" (which I think is a larger group), I again think you'd be surprised. Frankly, I know and have known quite a few D1 players who are shockingly (to me, and I strongly suspect to you) disinterested in following volleyball.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 14:20:40 GMT -5
I think you are greatly overestimating how connected USA Volleyball is with the average junior girls. Very few know who the national team coach is. Fewer could name more than one or two Olympians from Rio. Fewer still could name any significant accomplishment of the coach, team, or individual athletes. Boys grow up watching the NBA or the NFL, so it's relatively normal for a young boy to be able to name 5-10+ professional athletes in their sport. The same is not true for girls. Go to a club tourney and show an athlete a picture of Foluke Akinradewo, one of USAV's most marketed players, and see if they recognize her. You'd be surprised. If USC is recruiting "average junior girls", then there is a big problem. USC should be recruiting girls with YNT aspirations, and I'd be shocked if there is a HS middle in the country who is that level and doesn't know (and aspire to be) Foluke. Consider yourself shocked then. This is a big area where USAV has failed in a big way. Young American gymnasts know/knew who Simone Biles, Aly Raisman, Jordyn Weiber, Shawn Johnson, Nastia Liukin, Alicia Sacramone, etc. are or were. American tennis players know Serena, Venus, Isner, Roddick, Keys, Sock, and Stephens. Young American volleyball players, however, generally have no idea who Megan Hodge, Lindsey Berg, Dani Scott, Nicole Davis, Courtney Thompson, Karsta Lowe, Carli Lloyd, or Christa Harmotto are.
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Post by dgo on Jan 9, 2018 14:40:43 GMT -5
You could be right. My experience is limited to a small number of clubs in one region, but among those clubs on Open teams in 15s and up, virtually all know of Kiraly and the middles absolutely all know who Foluke is. In the rest of the country, I guess YMMV. We're talking about USC recruits, so are you saying that girls like Madison Horin who made the YNT and Wilhite who made the YNT training team (plus non-USC recruits like Holly Campbell, Kendall Kipp) don't know who Kiraly is and don't know who Foluke is? Are you clear that I'm talking about girls like that? High end Senior Aces? I guess it depends on how you're defining the group you're talking about. If you're talking about "girls with YNT aspirations," well then yes, I suspect most would know (however, I think you still might be surprised that some would not). If you're talking about "high end Senior Aces" (which I think is a larger group), I again think you'd be surprised. Frankly, I know and have known quite a few D1 players who are shockingly (to me, and I strongly suspect to you) disinterested in following volleyball. On a somewhat related note, I was witness to an amusing interaction between two "high end senior aces" (who shall remain nameless, but both were well known on this board) and one (S) was offended that the other (MB) didn't know who she was. S seemed to take it very personally. She needn't have been offended, however, because MB is one of those kids I'm talking about...she really just loves playing and doesn't follow the game at all (and she was quite good - an impact player from day one for a high major program). As between those two players, I have no doubt that S would have known all the significant national team players (and other senior aces -- although she then feigned ignorance of MB), but MB wouldn't have.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 9, 2018 15:02:04 GMT -5
What the hell. Why is she still there? If you haven't noticed, USC's athletic dept has been a mess for years and years. How the hell did Mike Garrett stay so long? BTW Garrett was a mess after he got fired from USC, couldn't make it at a NAIA school, and was accused of sexual harrassment at Cal State LA Don't forget that Babs Hedges came from USC, who came close to destroying UW Athletics.
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Post by bigjohn043 on Jan 9, 2018 15:02:16 GMT -5
The recent press releases from Hawaii (replacing Shoji) and Long Beach State (Gimmillaro) were all highly complimentary of the former coaches while introducing the new hires. Apples and oranges because they each chose to step down. I dearly wish USC could have negotiated an end date that allowed Mick to gracefully retire with the full fanfare he deserves. It's such a shame it ended this way. Of course it is a shame. Without any insider information, my sense is that the writing has been on the wall for a long time that USC wanted a change. I am sure that when they told him they wanted to go another direction they tried to make it amicable. But when told of the decision Nick Haley decided to sue. Once you do that the lawyers take over. You can't sue your former employer and still expect to be treated warmly. I hate U$C but I have a hard time blaming the school here.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 9, 2018 15:21:48 GMT -5
it’s obvious that USC looked to fill this job like they were doing the candidates a favor. USC is not a no questions asked-destination for everyone. Not when you can have great programs in other parts of the country with better crowds, better quality of life, with just a good if not better recruiting areas to work with. And much, much lower cost-of-living and athletic-department-drama. There's a point after which the negatives start to overwhelm the positives, and you're left with the one candidate for which the positives, alone, were sufficient, negatives aside. For Crouch, this job represents a clear jump up the ladder; for Fisher, K. Cook, or whoever else the other two candidates were, it was probably a step down, without considerably more money being shoved onto the table. On the other hand, maybe USC became sold on Crouch during the interview process and saw no reason to offer more money to the other candidates.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 15:25:02 GMT -5
I guess it depends on how you're defining the group you're talking about. If you're talking about "girls with YNT aspirations," well then yes, I suspect most would know (however, I think you still might be surprised that some would not). If you're talking about "high end Senior Aces" (which I think is a larger group), I again think you'd be surprised. Frankly, I know and have known quite a few D1 players who are shockingly (to me, and I strongly suspect to you) disinterested in following volleyball. On a somewhat related note, I was witness to an amusing interaction between two "high end senior aces" (who shall remain nameless, but both were well known on this board) and one (S) was offended that the other (MB) didn't know who she was. S seemed to take it very personally. She needn't have been offended, however, because MB is one of those kids I'm talking about...she really just loves playing and doesn't follow the game at all (and she was quite good - an impact player from day one for a high major program). As between those two players, I have no doubt that S would have known all the significant national team players (and other senior aces -- although she then feigned ignorance of MB), but MB wouldn't have. I don't know if you were as good at masking "S" as you might have thought lol.
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