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Post by Northern lights on Jun 8, 2018 17:12:40 GMT -5
How would you separate it? Even if he left a note saying addiction did not contribute to his decision, would that mean so? The suicide rate amongst addicts is 6 times the normal average. High functioning addicts are common. Besides I never said addiction was the cause. Well you are arguing that now aren't you? Until they do an autopsy we don't really know whether he was back on it. Or that his previous addiction plays a role. You seem to believe in guilty until proven innocent. No my point was that addiction is a lifetime disorder that permeates your entire life. I am not saying it was directly responsible for his death, but unlikely that it played no role. An addict does not have to be using for his illness to cause havoc in his life, so an autopsy would not indicate much. Here is a peculiar fact about addiction, you will never see a death certificate that says cause of death addiction. It will say suicide, or murder, or liver toxicity or heart failure, but what was the real cause?
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Post by Phaedrus on Jun 8, 2018 17:40:25 GMT -5
Well you are arguing that now aren't you? Until they do an autopsy we don't really know whether he was back on it. Or that his previous addiction plays a role. You seem to believe in guilty until proven innocent. No my point was that addiction is a lifetime disorder that permeates your entire life. I am not saying it was directly responsible for his death, but unlikely that it played no role. An addict does not have to be using for his illness to cause havoc in his life, so an autopsy would not indicate much. Here is a peculiar fact about addiction, you will never see a death certificate that says cause of death addiction. It will say suicide, or murder, or liver toxicity or heart failure, but what was the real cause? I understand that addiction is a pernicious disease. But does it necessarily have to be the addiction? I think by attributing it to addiction you are ignoring the elephant in the room which is mental illness. It is too easy to blame addiction.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 17:44:03 GMT -5
It's also chicken and egg. People become addicts, often, because of other underlying problems. Like depression.
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Post by Northern lights on Jun 8, 2018 17:48:49 GMT -5
No my point was that addiction is a lifetime disorder that permeates your entire life. I am not saying it was directly responsible for his death, but unlikely that it played no role. An addict does not have to be using for his illness to cause havoc in his life, so an autopsy would not indicate much. Here is a peculiar fact about addiction, you will never see a death certificate that says cause of death addiction. It will say suicide, or murder, or liver toxicity or heart failure, but what was the real cause? I understand that addiction is a pernicious disease. But does it necessarily have to be the addiction? I think by attributing it to addiction you are ignoring the elephant in the room which is mental illness. It is too easy to blame addiction. Addiction is a mental illness. And again I did not attribute it to addiction, said it was almost certainly a contributing factor and it would be nearly impossible to exclude it given what we know about the disease.
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Post by Northern lights on Jun 8, 2018 17:57:24 GMT -5
90% of addicts live a very struggled life with it culminating in incarceration, death or being admitted to a mental institution. Hardly encouraging, and very predictable until we find a way to do better. High functioning is only a result of the general trait of high intelligence.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 8, 2018 19:50:37 GMT -5
There is so much nonsense spread around about addiction. A lot of it comes from completely unscientific sources, like the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous. It really is harmful that people are made to believe that addiction can't be treated.
And all this despite there being no evidence (as far as I know) that his suicide was in any way related to substance abuse.
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Post by Northern lights on Jun 8, 2018 19:53:53 GMT -5
There is so much nonsense spread around about addiction. A lot of it comes from completely unscientific sources, like the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous. It really is harmful that people are made to believe that addiction can't be treated. And all this despite there being no evidence (as far as I know) that his suicide was in any way related to substance abuse. Tell us the treatment for addiction that has a proven success rate of over 10%?
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 8, 2018 20:10:59 GMT -5
There is so much nonsense spread around about addiction. A lot of it comes from completely unscientific sources, like the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous. It really is harmful that people are made to believe that addiction can't be treated. And all this despite there being no evidence (as far as I know) that his suicide was in any way related to substance abuse. Tell us the treatment for addiction that has a proven success rate of over 10%? What does "proven success rate" mean? I'll assume "proven" means statistically shown to be different from a control group that does not get the treatment, but what's your definition of "success rate"?
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 8, 2018 20:38:56 GMT -5
Anyway, there are a lot of studies that show the opioid blocker naltrexone is effective at reducing heavy drinking. Some studies suggest that it only works on populations with certain kinds of opioid receptors, while other studies have found it effective in all populations. The basic idea is to block the biochemical positive feedback loop.
And if not that drug, or not that drug for everyone, then there are other drugs.
Of course, if addiction to alcohol isn't actually the cause of the drinking, then blocking the biochemistry won't stop the drinking. The classic "crawling into a bottle" to avoid some other problem in a person's life isn't, per se, an alcohol addiction. It's a coping mechanism for some other issue, and the other issue needs to be addressed. But if the problem is actually addiction, then breaking the feedback loop that powers the addiction has been proven to be pretty dang effective.
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Post by maplespear on Jun 10, 2018 5:36:11 GMT -5
How would you separate it? Even if he left a note saying addiction did not contribute to his decision, would that mean so? The suicide rate amongst addicts is 6 times the normal average. High functioning addicts are common. Besides I never said addiction was the cause. Well you are arguing that now aren't you? Until they do an autopsy we don't really know whether he was back on it. Or that his previous addiction plays a role. You seem to believe in guilty until proven innocent. Welcome to real world !
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Post by ironhammer on Jun 10, 2018 7:23:59 GMT -5
Well you are arguing that now aren't you? Until they do an autopsy we don't really know whether he was back on it. Or that his previous addiction plays a role. You seem to believe in guilty until proven innocent. Welcome to real world ! No.
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Post by Wolfgang on Jun 10, 2018 18:31:27 GMT -5
I wonder how many people really heard of Anthony Bourdain prior to the suicide. We gave up cable a long time ago so the only time we had access to cable-only food shows were when we were traveling and staying in hotels and flipped through the free cable channels. I want to say we heard of Bourdain in 2005-ish, but I think it may actually be 2010 on a trip to Yellowstone when we were in a hotel in Jackson Hole, Wyoming and caught a show featuring Bourdain on one of the cable channels. The other "celebrity" who also committed suicide in this past week -- Kate Spade -- I didn't even know who she was. Now, youtube has plenty of Bourdain shows. I have to say, I was never really a fan -- but I'm not a fan of food or travel-for-food shows.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jun 10, 2018 20:46:45 GMT -5
I wonder how many people really heard of Anthony Bourdain prior to the suicide. We gave up cable a long time ago so the only time we had access to cable-only food shows were when we were traveling and staying in hotels and flipped through the free cable channels. I want to say we heard of Bourdain in 2005-ish, but I think it may actually be 2010 on a trip to Yellowstone when we were in a hotel in Jackson Hole, Wyoming and caught a show featuring Bourdain on one of the cable channels. The other "celebrity" who also committed suicide in this past week -- Kate Spade -- I didn't even know who she was. Now, youtube has plenty of Bourdain shows. I have to say, I was never really a fan -- but I'm not a fan of food or travel-for-food shows. I had never heard of Kate Spade. I had heard of David Spade, her brother-in-law. I had heard of Bourdain but had never seen or read anything he did. I knew he was a chef and had a series of TV specials about exploring unusual places and foods.
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Post by XAsstCoach on Jun 10, 2018 22:59:17 GMT -5
Never knew Kate Spade was David Spade's sister in law...that surprised me. But I knew of them both.
Interesting post in Yahoo commentaries...basically said there are many veterans who commit suicide each day that rarely gets any news coverage, yet its now a big issue because two celebrities committed suicide. Kind of a sad reflection.
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Post by gnu2vball on Jun 10, 2018 23:05:22 GMT -5
Never knew Kate Spade was David Spade's sister in law...that surprised me. But I knew of them both. Interesting post in Yahoo commentaries...basically said there are many veterans who commit suicide each day that rarely gets any news coverage, yet its now a big issue because two celebrities committed suicide. Kind of a sad reflection. Lots of folks say "EFF Trump" but DeNiro does it and gets a standing O. It's good to be a celebrity.
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