trojansc
Legend
All-VolleyTalk 1st Team (2022, 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017), All-VolleyTalk 2nd Team (2016), 2021, 2019 Fantasy League Champion, 2020 Fantasy League Runner Up, 2022 2nd Runner Up
Posts: 27,902
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Post by trojansc on Jul 26, 2018 4:44:52 GMT -5
Mick was great at developing athletes. The one thing I will miss about Mick is rarely was USC EVER unprepared. He always had a gameplan, was a great strategist. Some times he didn't make adjustments as quickly and was afraid to change his system at times, but one can't argue the success he had at USC. His last hurrah was an extraordinary effort at Florida. He targeted Knop on serve receive (especially deep) and gave Florida all sorts of trouble. He let Florida do their thing in the middle - and decided to take the Loss on the big power hit but make sure to get all of the "waffles and tips". He had Florida's hitting tendancies charted perfectly (USC defense didn't just appear out of no-where that match). Snyder was completely irrelevant until late (IIRC this only happened when Abercrombie didn't get lined up against Snyder). I don't see how anyone could have done more with USC than Mick did last year. I think the USC administration was scared when he was one point away from the Final Four. They couldn't have really terminated him, could they? Margins soooo thin. He'll be missed. And despite Mick not getting Abercrombie the chances she deserved her freshman year, Brittany was very emotional and grateful talking about Mick in her senior speech. She said something about how he pushed her farther than she ever thought she could go, and how he created an elite program at this university. I think part of that was said due to his firing and felt a need to give him some props. I don't think anyone disputes that Haley is a great vb coach, I know I certainly don't. But personal feelings aside, I think that if the administration doesn't want Haley to be the VB coach anymore, they should be able to get a new coach with all of the backlash. Mick Haley does not have an indefinite right to that job. I'm not saying that administration made the right choice in firing him, I frankly couldn't care less, what I'm saying is that I support the administrations ability to make a change as it sees fit. I mean if we really want to be believe that he was fired BECAUSE he was 74 years old, fine, run with it..... but from the outside looking in I think he sees many of his vb peers retiring from their institutions with dignity and he feels butt hurt that he doesn't get to go out the same way. It's just the fact of all this is, it's the USC administration we're talking about. They don't have a good track record right now. Their athletic department is an absolute mess, and has been for years now. Do you remember how long it took to fire freaking Mike Garrett??
Mick wanted to go out coaching. He told his recruits he'd be there, and he planned to be. He's still a human being (I hear gasps in the background) and he had relationships and a passion for the game. I don't think it was fair the way that it was done. They give him the run around about getting a renewal contract. Then fire him months early, don't even respect him enough to tell his team. Donna and the USC athletic department acted maliciously (imo)
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Post by tomclen on Jul 26, 2018 7:56:09 GMT -5
Mick was great at developing athletes. The one thing I will miss about Mick is rarely was USC EVER unprepared. He always had a gameplan, was a great strategist. Some times he didn't make adjustments as quickly and was afraid to change his system at times, but one can't argue the success he had at USC. His last hurrah was an extraordinary effort at Florida. He targeted Knop on serve receive (especially deep) and gave Florida all sorts of trouble. He let Florida do their thing in the middle - and decided to take the Loss on the big power hit but make sure to get all of the "waffles and tips". He had Florida's hitting tendancies charted perfectly (USC defense didn't just appear out of no-where that match). Snyder was completely irrelevant until late (IIRC this only happened when Abercrombie didn't get lined up against Snyder). I don't see how anyone could have done more with USC than Mick did last year. I think the USC administration was scared when he was one point away from the Final Four. They couldn't have really terminated him, could they? Margins soooo thin. He'll be missed. And despite Mick not getting Abercrombie the chances she deserved her freshman year, Brittany was very emotional and grateful talking about Mick in her senior speech. She said something about how he pushed her farther than she ever thought she could go, and how he created an elite program at this university. I think part of that was said due to his firing and felt a need to give him some props. I don't think anyone disputes that Haley is a great vb coach, I know I certainly don't. But personal feelings aside, I think that if the administration doesn't want Haley to be the VB coach anymore, they should be able to get a new coach with all of the backlash. Mick Haley does not have an indefinite right to that job. I'm not saying that administration made the right choice in firing him, I frankly couldn't care less, what I'm saying is that I support the administrations ability to make a change as it sees fit. I mean if we really want to be believe that he was fired BECAUSE he was 74 years old, fine, run with it..... but from the outside looking in I think he sees many of his vb peers retiring from their institutions with dignity and he feels butt hurt that he doesn't get to go out the same way. If Mick Haley's teams had missed the tournament two or three years in a row and there was a clear pattern of decline, your statement might make some sense. But Haley had a pretty consistent record of high-level success. If there's some standard that you have to win a national title every few years, then we're going to be left with only 3 head volleyball coaches in America. Bobby Bowden, Larry Brown, Connie Mack, Jack McKeon....all coached into their 70s or 80s. This notion that, "oh, he's 70, he can't coach anymore' is just blatant stupidity. Especially for a guy who came a couple of questionable calls away from a final four. This was an epic fail for USC. Epic. And when you add in the factor of how he was fired, long distance while still at the finals, it was downright shameful and mean-spirited.
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Post by InTheKnow on Jul 26, 2018 8:41:52 GMT -5
I don't think anyone disputes that Haley is a great vb coach, I know I certainly don't. But personal feelings aside, I think that if the administration doesn't want Haley to be the VB coach anymore, they should be able to get a new coach with all of the backlash. Mick Haley does not have an indefinite right to that job. I'm not saying that administration made the right choice in firing him, I frankly couldn't care less, what I'm saying is that I support the administrations ability to make a change as it sees fit. I mean if we really want to be believe that he was fired BECAUSE he was 74 years old, fine, run with it..... but from the outside looking in I think he sees many of his vb peers retiring from their institutions with dignity and he feels butt hurt that he doesn't get to go out the same way. If Mick Haley's teams had missed the tournament two or three years in a row and there was a clear pattern of decline, your statement might make some sense. But Haley had a pretty consistent record of high-level success. If there's some standard that you have to win a national title every few years, then we're going to be left with only 3 head volleyball coaches in America. Bobby Bowden, Larry Brown, Connie Mack, Jack McKeon....all coached into their 70s or 80s. This notion that, "oh, he's 70, he can't coach anymore' is just blatant stupidity. Especially for a guy who came a couple of questionable calls away from a final four. This was an epic fail for USC. Epic. And when you add in the factor of how he was fired, long distance while still at the finals, it was downright shameful and mean-spirited. COMPLETELY AGREE!! Admin who make decisions like this need to be reprimended.
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Post by Freeman on Jul 26, 2018 8:59:49 GMT -5
I doubt USC settles this. For one thing, to do so might taint the legitimacy of their hire and they'll be reluctant to do that to the new coach. It would also taint their SWA and she's not going to agree to that. Also, this is a minor public relations issue compared to the ones involving students being examined and drug abusing Deans. Lastly, Mick filed for arbitration, and not as a civil lawsuit, which is not the preferred venue for bringing attention to the allegations, or for obtaining a large verdict or settlement. What legitimacy of their hire?
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 26, 2018 9:45:44 GMT -5
I doubt USC settles this. For one thing, to do so might taint the legitimacy of their hire and they'll be reluctant to do that to the new coach. It would also taint their SWA and she's not going to agree to that. Also, this is a minor public relations issue compared to the ones involving students being examined and drug abusing Deans. Lastly, Mick filed for arbitration, and not as a civil lawsuit, which is not the preferred venue for bringing attention to the allegations, or for obtaining a large verdict or settlement. What legitimacy of their hire? lol The same legitimacy of their SWA
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 26, 2018 11:35:25 GMT -5
Bobby Bowden, Larry Brown, Connie Mack, Jack McKeon....all coached into their 70s or 80s. This notion that, "oh, he's 70, he can't coach anymore' is just blatant stupidity. Especially for a guy who came a couple of questionable calls away from a final four. Larry Brown? At the same age as Mick is right now, the NCAA made him sit out 30% of his teams games for poor oversight and failing to disclose academic fraud. He was forced to resign after the season, at the age Mick will be this season. Did he ever coach anywhere more than 5 years without getting fired or quitting? I'm assuming you mentioned him to support SC? You also failed to mention how well Paterno finished. I did a little checking and was frankly stunned, so I dug a little more. Here is a list of coaches who are younger than Mick Haley. Not when they retired, I mean younger than him right now: Andy Banachowski Doug Beal Terry Liskevych Mary Jo Peppler Brian Gimmillaro Don Shaw Marv Dunphy Terry Pettit Dave Shoji John Dunning Kathy Gregory This discussion comparing Mick's age to anyone else would be evidence of age discrimination. The only relevant issue is how he was performing his job at USC.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jul 26, 2018 12:20:15 GMT -5
Player issues gave USC ample justification for forcing Mick out. Coaches don’t like it, but big numbers in the wins column no longer cover that up. And as sbvb noted above, many of them would be well served to remember that their bosses are.. well... their bosses.
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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 26, 2018 12:25:06 GMT -5
At some point a school has to have the right to move on to a younger coach and prepare a long term plan that ideally can give them up to a 15 year run. Yes, they have a right (and perhaps a duty) to prepare for a succession. But I'm pretty sure it's a matter of state and federal law if they have a right to decide he's just too old to be their coach. Age is a protected class. Some professions, like airline pilot, have mandatory retirement ages, but I'm not aware there is any such thing in coaching.
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Post by tomclen on Jul 26, 2018 12:27:50 GMT -5
This discussion comparing Mick's age to anyone else would be evidence of age discrimination. The only relevant issue is how he was performing his job at USC. We're not in court or at arbitration, so it is OK to discuss age. The simple fact is that there are zero head coaches at high level programs anywhere near his age, but there is a long list of retired hall of fame coaches that are younger than him. The simple fact is, your simple fact is wrong. KSU football coach Bill Snyder is 78. I'd contend football is a little more demanding to coach than volleyball. Ohio coach Frank Solich is 73. In Men's basketball Jim Boeheim at Syracuse is 72. Cliff Ellis at Coastal Carolina is 71. Mike Krzyzewski is 70. Fercripesake, we just elected a 70-year old as president.
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Post by volleyguy on Jul 26, 2018 12:29:16 GMT -5
This discussion comparing Mick's age to anyone else would be evidence of age discrimination. The only relevant issue is how he was performing his job at USC. We're not in court or at arbitration, so it is OK to discuss age. The simple fact is that there are zero head coaches at high level programs anywhere near his age, but there is a long list of retired hall of fame coaches that are younger than him. Add McLaughlin to the list, as a good example of how quickly medical issues can impact your ability to coach as you get older. He could still come back at some point, but more likely on the national level than college. I don't know how long Rose will coach, but I highly doubt he makes it to 70, let alone 74. Cook is still in good health and is highly driven. I can see him pushing hard as long as he is still behind Rose in NCs. From a practical standpoint, Mick wanted another 5 year contract, but USC did not want to commit to 5 more years. Call it what you want, but the odds of Haley finishing a 5 year contract at a very high level was remote. At some point a school has to have the right to move on to a younger coach and prepare a long term plan that ideally can give them up to a 15 year run. I know that has been a concern with young recruits for a few years now. If you like USC and either like Mick or don't like Mick, you were gambling on who would be the coach when you got to campus and whether they would hold you in the same regard or try to cut you loose. I know of girls being recruited in the past couple of years that were counting on him going and would take a chance on the new hire, and those that loved Mick but were afraid they'd never play for him and were also nervous about the new hire (Note I am referring to a large pool of recruits, not commits. I'm intentionally trying to be as vague as possible.) It seems to me that to coach at a high end D1 program is a special privilege and is highly competitive, not something with job security. What metrics do you think are valid to measure a coaches performance? Obviously he was at a point that he wasn't interested in getting along with his boss. You can look at that as a positive or a negative for him personally, but it usually isn't a formula for keeping your job long term. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your argument at this point. I am merely pointing out that for someone in a position of authority at USC to have this discussion (which is a completely normal and legitimate general discussion) in a document-able way would be evidence of age discrimination (I'm not suggesting that you are at USC either). As long as there exists some legitimate reason for USC's decision, even if there were also some evidence of age discrimination, a court would be unlikely to rule in Mick's favor. Presumably, an arbitrator would rule similarly, but because the rules treating evidence and witnesses are different, it may or may not be advantageous to pursue the case in arbitration. Neither of the individuals central to this are blameless and neither comes out of it looking very good imo.
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Post by azvb on Jul 26, 2018 12:42:35 GMT -5
Can’t compare volleyball to football/basketball, IMO. How much do head coaches of football or basketball actually coach? They are mostly PR. I was reffing at Arizona one time. Got there a little early and watched the basketball team practice. Lute Olson sat in the stands the whole time I was there. Came down to the floor at the end and gave a 2 minute pep talk.
USC handled this badly, no question. Reminds me how BYU dumped Elaine Michaelis.
Was Mick given the option to retire?
As a really lazy person, it baffles me anyone wants to coach at his age.
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Post by horns1 on Jul 26, 2018 13:35:54 GMT -5
Just because Mick wanted to keep coaching at USC, that doesn't mean USC had to renew his contract. It takes two parties to bind a contract. USC is not obligated to renew it, even if Mick was in his 40's.
If things were the other way around, and it was Mick who refused to sign a contract renewal/extension, USC would just have to accept it.
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Post by azvb on Jul 26, 2018 13:52:25 GMT -5
As a really lazy person, it baffles me anyone wants to coach at his age. Ronald Reagan was president age 78 I should have specified, why ANYONE would want to work past 60-65 baffles me. But, as I said, I’m pretty lazy.
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Post by tomclen on Jul 26, 2018 13:57:25 GMT -5
The simple fact is, your simple fact is wrong. KSU football coach Bill Snyder is 78. I'd contend football is a little more demanding to coach than volleyball. Ohio coach Frank Solich is 73. In Men's basketball Jim Boeheim at Syracuse is 72. Cliff Ellis at Coastal Carolina is 71. Mike Krzyzewski is 70. Fercripesake, we just elected a 70-year old as president. I think you went ahead and proved my point for me, so thanks for that. See, there's the problem with the internet. You said "The simple fact is that there are zero head coaches at high level programs anywhere near (Haley's age.)" I name a couple and you feel I proved your point. Can't wait until 4:20 because I need to fire up. (Now if Mick Haley and John Prine were here with me, that would take the edge off.)
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Post by Millennium on Jul 26, 2018 14:20:11 GMT -5
Whats the lawyer cut in all this? 30%, 40%? More or less?
Probably more like $500 per hour. Those crooks!
Sorry for to all the attorneys on this site for that last comment...
Actually, no I'm not. Y'all make enough to earn the moniker. LOL!
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