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Post by hookshott on Dec 24, 2018 18:38:24 GMT -5
Net serves were eliminated not because players lacked skill, but because officials lacked skill, a much more serious and pervasive problem in my opinion. I believe net serves were eliminated to add more rallies to the match. Most net serves are relatively easy to pass when they barely touch the tape.....so a rally takes place....which is far more interesting than simply awarding a point to the receiving team! When a player messes up their serve by serving into the tape, and then is rewarded by having it fall over into an area where it is almost impossible to make a play, well that was not the intent of the rule change As a coach and an official I can tell you that it was pretty simple to call a net serve when your hand was on the top of the net...though, of course, like all officials, you are rarely (never!) always correct.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 24, 2018 19:05:02 GMT -5
I really, really hate this argument. Because what you mean by "skill" is "conforming to an exact rule of style that has no actual benefit to the game but proves a player has studied and practiced a long time in order to achieve this style". What you are asking for is figure skating -- old-fashioned figure skating when the main judging was on how precisely the skater could skate the mandatory figures on the surface of the ice. Calling double contacts is the same thing. It's a judge (the ref) making a judgment call on whether the player demonstrated the accepted conventional style. It's really got nothing to do with the original purpose of the rule, which was just that you needed to pass the ball to someone else on your team instead of to yourself. Why do you hate the fact that setting requires skill? Ever seen a non volleyball player or a 5 year old try to set. It looks a hell of a lot different. Because they aren’t as skilled or ‘proven they have studied and practiced a long time in order to achieve a legal set. I want players to learn how to set, no allowed what my drunk uncle does while playing keep-it-up on the beach with his 6 year old daughter. And ”I really really hate this argument” that calling doubles is same thing as figure skating or diving. Those judges give a score. Maybe a 7.4, maybe a 9.5, maybe an 8.2, maybe a 6.9. They aren’t playing against a defense. A volleyball set is black and white, legal or illegal. Setters don’t get 9.7s while middles get a 7.2 on their sets. It’s either allowed or it’s not. Lastly, is a lift/carry a judgement call? Standing on your head requires skill. Would it make volleyball a better sport if we insisted all the players did it? Ozzie Smith used to do backflips on the baseball diamond. That required skill. Maybe we should make all shortstops do that to improve baseball? Every single set, ever, is a double if you slow time down enough to see it. Whether refs call it or not is a judgment call -- and it's usually not even judged on actual double contacts, but rather the spin of the ball. Yes, setting a ball so it has no spin and so it appears as if your hands touched the ball simultaneously is a skill, but is it a skill that improves volleyball? Or is it just a skill that setters have to learn because refs expect them to show that particular style just because previous setters also learned it?
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Post by Scipio Aemilianus on Dec 24, 2018 19:14:45 GMT -5
Why do you hate the fact that setting requires skill? Ever seen a non volleyball player or a 5 year old try to set. It looks a hell of a lot different. Because they aren’t as skilled or ‘proven they have studied and practiced a long time in order to achieve a legal set. I want players to learn how to set, no allowed what my drunk uncle does while playing keep-it-up on the beach with his 6 year old daughter. And ”I really really hate this argument” that calling doubles is same thing as figure skating or diving. Those judges give a score. Maybe a 7.4, maybe a 9.5, maybe an 8.2, maybe a 6.9. They aren’t playing against a defense. A volleyball set is black and white, legal or illegal. Setters don’t get 9.7s while middles get a 7.2 on their sets. It’s either allowed or it’s not. Lastly, is a lift/carry a judgement call? Standing on your head requires skill. Would it make volleyball a better sport if we insisted all the players did it? Ozzie Smith used to do backflips on the baseball diamond. That required skill. Maybe we should make all shortstops do that to improve baseball? Every single set, ever, is a double if you slow time down enough to see it. Whether refs call it or not is a judgment call -- and it's usually not even judged on actual double contacts, but rather the spin of the ball. Yes, setting a ball so it has no spin and so it appears as if your hands touched the ball simultaneously is a skill, but is it a skill that improves volleyball? Or is it just a skill that setters have to learn because refs expect them to show that particular style just because previous setters also learned it? Huh? Yes standing on your head is a skill, but it doesn’t have anything to do with volleyball. It’s irrevelant. No it wouldn’t make volleyball a better sport. Ozzie Smith doing backflips in baseball again is irrelevant. He did it in between innings. For entertainment. It didn’t help him be better at baseball. If Nebraska did backflips during a timeout, would it help them win? No. But it would be entertaining. Just like Ozzie Smith in baseball. Would doing a good backflip help in gymnastics? Yes , because that skill is a part of that sport. These random “skills” that are completely irrelevant to the sport of volleyball is a terrible argument. Every single bump, “ever, is a double when you slow time down enough to see it. Whether refs call it or not is a judgment call -- and it's usually not even judged on actual double contacts” That is a direct quote that I change one word. Should bumps and passes be illegal? And again I’ll ask, is a lift/carry a judgement call?
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 24, 2018 19:28:23 GMT -5
Every single bump, “ever, is a double when you slow time down enough to see it. Whether refs call it or not is a judgment call -- and it's usually not even judged on actual double contacts” That is a direct quote that I change one word. Should bumps and passes be illegal? Of course not, but sets shouldn't be either. The rules were changed for first contact to make a single attempt to play the ball automatically never a double contact. They should extend that rule to sets as well. Just like backflips are irrelevant to baseball, non-spinning sets are irrelevant to volleyball. The purpose of the double contact rule is not to enforce style on setters. Instead, the real purpose is just so setters can't set to themselves, like this:
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Post by Scipio Aemilianus on Dec 24, 2018 19:49:45 GMT -5
Every single bump, “ever, is a double when you slow time down enough to see it. Whether refs call it or not is a judgment call -- and it's usually not even judged on actual double contacts” That is a direct quote that I change one word. Should bumps and passes be illegal? Of course not, but sets shouldn't be either. The rules were changed for first contact to make a single attempt to play the ball automatically never a double contact. They should extend that rule to sets as well. Just like backflips are irrelevant to baseball, non-spinning sets are irrelevant to volleyball. The purpose of the double contact rule is not to enforce style on setters. Instead, the real purpose is just so setters can't set to themselves, like this: Love that video! And difference of opinion. It’s not for style but to ensure some skill involved to give better skilled players an advantage. Passing used to be a really tough skill. Now, people stand on the 12 ft line and just slap at serves. Much like my drunk uncle on the beach. It requires less skill. Which is not good for the sport in my opinion. Is a lift/carry a judgement call?
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 24, 2018 23:16:16 GMT -5
Of course not, but sets shouldn't be either. The rules were changed for first contact to make a single attempt to play the ball automatically never a double contact. They should extend that rule to sets as well. Just like backflips are irrelevant to baseball, non-spinning sets are irrelevant to volleyball. The purpose of the double contact rule is not to enforce style on setters. Instead, the real purpose is just so setters can't set to themselves, like this: Love that video! And difference of opinion. It’s not for style but to ensure some skill involved to give better skilled players an advantage. Passing used to be a really tough skill. Now, people stand on the 12 ft line and just slap at serves. Much like my drunk uncle on the beach. It requires less skill. Which is not good for the sport in my opinion. Is a lift/carry a judgement call? If you can't see that you are demanding that volleyball be judged according to style rather than athletic play, there's obviously nothing more for us to discuss here. If your "drunk uncle on the beach" manages to get a kill, shouldn't it count? Even if he had lousy form? Lifts/throws -- yeah, I guess that's a judgment call. But that's fundamental to volleyball -- it's not supposed to be a game where you catch or hold the ball. But setting the ball without spin just because that's something that's hard for your drunk uncle to do? Nothing but style points.
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Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Apr 15, 2019 8:46:34 GMT -5
I was doing a search for something unrelated (still haven’t found what I’m looking for) and I came across this thread after having heard something sort of related to the topic that I am now curious about.
I think it was one of the announcers at the 2017 NCAA semis or finals. UCLA was playing and the announcer kept pointed out that the PAC12 refs didn’t call doubles as often as the other conferences. If I recall correctly UCLA was getting dinged on double calls (this was a few weeks back so my memory isn’t solid on all the details) game was being played in Minnesota.
I suppose the statement may be statistically possible and backed up. Anyone have any knowledge about this?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 10:12:36 GMT -5
OF COURSE double-hits should be called. Why shouldn't they? We have already legislated too much skill out of the game (doubles on first contact, net serve, libero means some people will NEVER play backrow, incidental net, etc...). Can we PLEASE keep some skill in the game? Only if we can agree to stop calling it a "double hit" unless someone's accidentally touching the ball twice while attacking. ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 13:07:07 GMT -5
Love that video! And difference of opinion. It’s not for style but to ensure some skill involved to give better skilled players an advantage. Passing used to be a really tough skill. Now, people stand on the 12 ft line and just slap at serves. Much like my drunk uncle on the beach. It requires less skill. Which is not good for the sport in my opinion. Is a lift/carry a judgement call? If you can't see that you are demanding that volleyball be judged according to style rather than athletic play, there's obviously nothing more for us to discuss here. If your "drunk uncle on the beach" manages to get a kill, shouldn't it count? Even if he had lousy form? Lifts/throws -- yeah, I guess that's a judgment call. But that's fundamental to volleyball -- it's not supposed to be a game where you catch or hold the ball. But setting the ball without spin just because that's something that's hard for your drunk uncle to do? Nothing but style points. Today it seems that all setting violations are judgement calls by the officials. In the past it was defined and enforced. I have seen setters touch the ball on the left side of their body and release it far right of their body being in their hands the entire time ( carry? ) Set with sidespin, topspin, and underspin (throw? ) Use both hands palms up to dig a ball ( lift/double contact? ) I have seen officials make calls against a highly skilled setter and not against her lesser skilled opponent. And, I have seen this at almost every level of competition. Why have rules if they are not enforced ( maybe some rule changes are in order? )
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 16:21:13 GMT -5
The better question about the serve/net rule is why was it EVER illegal? It's not illegal for the ball to contact the net on any other contact.
As for setting, you cannot set a ball with two hands and not have a double (or more) contact. So the ref is left to decide what is too much. Subjectivity.
What they need to call is lifts and let all but the consecutive contacts go with double contacts.
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 15, 2019 16:28:35 GMT -5
The better question about the serve/net rule is why was it EVER illegal? It's not illegal for the ball to contact the net on any other contact. Because tape-crawling aces are an ugly way to win points. That's why it used to be illegal. (Several other things about serves are unique to serves -- self-setting and being able to throw the ball, not being allowed to be inside the court, etc.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 16:41:57 GMT -5
The better question about the serve/net rule is why was it EVER illegal? It's not illegal for the ball to contact the net on any other contact. Because tape-crawling aces are an ugly way to win points. That's why it used to be illegal. (Several other things about serves are unique to serves -- self-setting and being able to throw the ball, not being allowed to be inside the court, etc.) Are they somehow uglier than tape-crawling attacks -- or any other tape-crawling contact?
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Post by radioactiveman on Apr 16, 2019 15:15:43 GMT -5
The better question about the serve/net rule is why was it EVER illegal? It's not illegal for the ball to contact the net on any other contact. For the same reason hitting the net in tennis on a serve is a let, but otherwise hitting the tape is fair play. The let serve gives too much of an advantage to the server, since that's the point where player serving has complete control over the ball. A good tennis player can be so precise with the ball that they could hit the tape 7 out of 10 times they tried for almost guaranteed points. I'm honestly surprised that some of the better servers in volleyball don't intentionally aim for the top of the tape.
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Post by Winbabywin on Apr 16, 2019 16:06:29 GMT -5
I really wish people would stop trying to get rid of the double call. Have we no integrity? Are we that feeble,desperate and weak to please the spectators? Do we have to ruin the intricacies of this great sport, just so we get 10 more fans to watch ESPN 1 night a year? How many people fully understand holding in football, or offsides in soccer? Can't we accept that there are aspects of every sport that make them each great, and difficult? Master your dang craft, people will appreciate it...I promise. Stop trying to dumb it down for the masses
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Post by dodger on Apr 16, 2019 21:08:10 GMT -5
Net serves were eliminated not because players lacked skill, but because officials lacked skill, a much more serious and pervasive problem in my opinion. Not true
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