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Post by Disc808 on Dec 26, 2018 2:28:54 GMT -5
All I’m saying is that some of these college players who are already proven to be skilled in the NCAA and USA youth/junior programs should be invested in a bit more, or at least given real chances to show Karch and Co. what they can do. Sure we have the open tryouts or whatever you call it but do we really think the NORCECA competition they face is a good barometer? It doesn’t have to be a 2020 roster spot, but I do think having that experience for the next quad would be valuable. Yeah not every single young hot shot should be in the gym, but I like what Speraw did with DeFalco, Ensing, and Jendryk.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Dec 26, 2018 4:57:20 GMT -5
That’s not how our country operates though. Most prep players are playing for that college scholarship. With that said, under Toshi Yoshida, I think the US tried what you guys are suggesting. Unfortunately, I believe the only player that went that route was Tracie Stalls. But look, she ended up going to Nebraska afterwards - and didn’t even make any national teams - maybe injury, burnout? I do agree we need to develop the talent for intl purposes ... but then again, are college coaches willing to risk injury? Look at someone like Nwanebu? Under Kiraly moreso than others recent national team coaches, you do wonder about the up and comers .. as he seems to rely heavily on veterans. The answer really isn’t to try and start them earlier anyway, our club kids are not prepared for international play. USAV should be doing everything they can to push/promote/beg for a USA pro circuit but they just do not have the manpower or desire to do so. They need to keep their focus on their cash cow, their (essentially useless) HP program. A pro league would not have any impact on development for international play. The pro league would only draft post-NCAA players, which would basically be the status quo (and probably worse, as I suspect the top players are getting better exposure now than they would in a US-only pro league - which would likely only extend our incompatible-with-FIVB sub rules). We need to be getting players ready for international play before they turn 22.
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Post by Hawk Attack on Dec 26, 2018 10:10:38 GMT -5
The answer really isn’t to try and start them earlier anyway, our club kids are not prepared for international play. USAV should be doing everything they can to push/promote/beg for a USA pro circuit but they just do not have the manpower or desire to do so. They need to keep their focus on their cash cow, their (essentially useless) HP program. A pro league would not have any impact on development for international play. The pro league would only draft post-NCAA players, which would basically be the status quo (and probably worse, as I suspect the top players are getting better exposure now than they would in a US-only pro league - which would likely only extend our incompatible-with-FIVB sub rules). We need to be getting players ready for international play before they turn 22. I disagree that it wouldn’t have an impact on development. I think it would bring more exposure to the idea that volleyball isn’t just a college scholarship endgame and that could help change the expectations parents have for clubs developing their kids.
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Post by ironhammer on Dec 26, 2018 10:37:40 GMT -5
When discussion on pro leagues (or lack thereof) in the US comes up, it always come down to the chicken and egg question. People say there is not enough demand in the market for a pro league, hence no one is willing to invest in one, hence there is no pro league. Well, the key then is to find a way to create the demand, or find a rich sugar daddy who is willing to sink in the money for sure losses for the first few years of operation. Ok...on second thought, maybe I shouldn't use the term "rich sugar daddy", but you get what I mean, finding some really rich volleyball fanatic who is willing to pour his own money into a league despite sure losses initially. Problem is, do they exist? Probably not, otherwise we would have a longer running league than the failed and aborted attempts we have now.
So....maybe the better question is, in the absence of a pro league (the reality now), how do you improve the international exposure of the current crop of high school and college players, and do it in a way that is beneficial for their athletic development and USA volleyball's competitiveness.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 11:17:13 GMT -5
Carlini is still struggling to connect with her middles...and I`m not talking about last season...I`m talking about this season. Nothing has changed and all she can do is set the OPP....and how hard is to set Haak and Egonu? !!
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Post by ironhammer on Dec 26, 2018 11:43:48 GMT -5
Carlini is still struggling to connect with her middles...and I`m not talking about last season...I`m talking about this season. Nothing has changed and all she can do is set the OPP....and how hard is to set Haak and Egonu? !! So if not Carlini, then it should be...
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Post by Hawk Attack on Dec 26, 2018 11:44:34 GMT -5
Carlini is still struggling to connect with her middles...and I`m not talking about last season...I`m talking about this season. Nothing has changed and all she can do is set the OPP....and how hard is to set Haak and Egonu? !! So if not Carlini, then it should be... Plum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 11:55:34 GMT -5
Carlini is still struggling to connect with her middles...and I`m not talking about last season...I`m talking about this season. Nothing has changed and all she can do is set the OPP....and how hard is to set Haak and Egonu? !! So if not Carlini, then it should be... I guess gotta stay with Lloyd/Hancock
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 11:58:51 GMT -5
The answer really isn’t to try and start them earlier anyway, our club kids are not prepared for international play. USAV should be doing everything they can to push/promote/beg for a USA pro circuit but they just do not have the manpower or desire to do so. They need to keep their focus on their cash cow, their (essentially useless) HP program. I think a US pro league is probably not the answer because it is unlikely to be economically feasible any time soon. I think an enhanced elite junior development program under the umbrella of USA Volleyball (in order to be congruent with NCAA rules) is the way to go. Currently, our HP programs are insufficient to promote significant development, but some type of regional grouping of talent in a longer-term academy setting (or a tiered junior club competition level) would be much more useful. That requires some investment by USAV ( or sponsorship/fund-raising) and might be too ambitious, but it seems like a much better alternative to the existing disjointed system we have. This sounds like what they do for USA Hockey with its National Team Development Program. I am not entirely sure how successful that program has been, but it is a significant investment in development. It is probably harder to judge success with that, though. No doubt the depth of American-born players exists in hockey, but whether that's attributable to the USNDTP or not is unclear to me. It has an Under-18 team and an Under-17 program. I think it's still located in Ann Arbor. Not sure what the investment would have to be for volleyball to have a similar program, or what the benefit would be. Don't know if they'd play a handful of matches against college competition, or go to tournaments, or what would happen. A likely result of more intensive training as high schoolers would be more polished freshman coming into colleges, probably some amount of an increase in burnout and injury retirements. But, those who make it through might be better at the other end.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 12:01:04 GMT -5
So if not Carlini, then it should be... I guess gotta stay with Lloyd/Hancock What is it that they say about the definition of insanity??
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Post by volleyguy on Dec 26, 2018 12:18:10 GMT -5
I think a US pro league is probably not the answer because it is unlikely to be economically feasible any time soon. I think an enhanced elite junior development program under the umbrella of USA Volleyball (in order to be congruent with NCAA rules) is the way to go. Currently, our HP programs are insufficient to promote significant development, but some type of regional grouping of talent in a longer-term academy setting (or a tiered junior club competition level) would be much more useful. That requires some investment by USAV ( or sponsorship/fund-raising) and might be too ambitious, but it seems like a much better alternative to the existing disjointed system we have. This sounds like what they do for USA Hockey with its National Team Development Program. I am not entirely sure how successful that program has been, but it is a significant investment in development. It is probably harder to judge success with that, though. No doubt the depth of American-born players exists in hockey, but whether that's attributable to the USNDTP or not is unclear to me. It has an Under-18 team and an Under-17 program. I think it's still located in Ann Arbor. Not sure what the investment would have to be for volleyball to have a similar program, or what the benefit would be. Don't know if they'd play a handful of matches against college competition, or go to tournaments, or what would happen. A likely result of more intensive training as high schoolers would be more polished freshman coming into colleges, probably some amount of an increase in burnout and injury retirements. But, those who make it through might be better at the other end. One of my neighbors (I live in So Cal) has a 16 year old who has been in this hockey pipeline at the highest level for many years. I don't know the details of their program, but I know it is extremely intensive and time-consuming (far beyond the normal vb club cycle, for example). The idea would be to replace the high school/club cycles rather than to overlay this training cycle onto those. Whether it would only appeal to a narrow group of athletes who want to by-pass college and go pro right away, or create a pool of athletes that might be the object of intensified recruiting by colleges, I don't know (I imagine some combination of those is likely).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 12:52:58 GMT -5
Carlini is still struggling to connect with her middles...and I`m not talking about last season...I`m talking about this season. Nothing has changed and all she can do is set the OPP....and how hard is to set Haak and Egonu? !! Isn’t Novara currently undefeated in Champions League and Serie A1?
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Post by DaDawgFather on Dec 26, 2018 12:58:33 GMT -5
When discussion on pro leagues (or lack thereof) in the US comes up, it always come down to the chicken and egg question. People say there is not enough demand in the market for a pro league, hence no one is willing to invest in one, hence there is no pro league. Well, the key then is to find a way to create the demand, or find a rich sugar daddy who is willing to sink in the money for sure losses for the first few years of operation. Ok...on second thought, maybe I shouldn't use the term "rich sugar daddy", but you get what I mean, finding some really rich volleyball fanatic who is willing to pour his own money into a league despite sure losses initially. Problem is, do they exist? Probably not, otherwise we would have a longer running league than the failed and aborted attempts we have now. That was tried in the early 2000s. It didn't last long. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Professional_Volleyball_League
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Post by ericleo on Dec 26, 2018 14:35:00 GMT -5
All of current US setters are okay setters, but none of them has ever reached the level of Glass in 2014 and 2016.
The VNL Lloyd was pretty good, but the WCH Lloyd is terrible. She is still struggling in Brazil.
Carlini has made some progress, especially in setting to her OHs in a quick tempo. Her connections with Chirichella is pretty good actually. But she does struggle setting the balls that Veljkovic wants, which should be higher than those to Chirichella.
Hancock IMO is doing a pretty decent job this year, both in the NT and Monza. But her blocking is a very big target.
So in my opinion Hancock is very suitable for a back-up setter, or the double-sub setter, like Courtney Thompson in 2014.
If Lloyd can return back to her VNL form, then she is still the best option for the starting setter. If only this happens in 2019.
Meanwhile, KK should invest some time on Carlini, at least let her participate in the VNLs, give her some space to make mistakes and even lose several games. Carlini is the least experienced setter among the three, but she is not that bad compared to Lloyd and Hancock.
What really bugs me is not who the setter should be, as much as I may prefer one of them, I am always more glad to see the team win. I just don't understand why Karch became so intimidated in using the young players since 2017. He takes VNL/WGP too seriously. These tournaments should be where he develops the potentials. That is exactly what he did four years ago. He put Hill in the line-up in 2013, and used Glass as the starting setter. Though Glass had played quite a lot in the London quad. But in 2013 it was the first time Glass played such a fast offense tempo. We knew both of them performed badly in 2013. USWNT lost many matches in 2013, but we saw a much more matured version of Hill and Glass next year. In 2014, both Robinson and Dixon were just rookie college graduates, but they both earned a lot of time on court.
Lots of Americans are playing overseas right now. And many of them are having a quite good season so far. I just wish these players can get shot at the NT next year. If they can prove themselves, just let them stay and let them play more. If not, then let them go. Just that simple.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 14:38:49 GMT -5
Carlini is still struggling to connect with her middles...and I`m not talking about last season...I`m talking about this season. Nothing has changed and all she can do is set the OPP....and how hard is to set Haak and Egonu? !! Isn’t Novara currently undefeated in Champions League and Serie A1? They lost today... still does not change the fact Carlini`s game has not improved...her sets to the middles are still a working progress. I don`t think there`s anything wrong setting every ball to Egonu as she can beat any team in the world Club/National Team on her own....but when they r playing against the low/mid-level teams in regular season I don`t think it is necessary to overuse her...this is the time to create a good connection with the middles and get everyone involved. Malinov was the best setter in the WCH....her performance in Serie A is not even close good as she was at the WCH....but in the WCH she was setting mostly balls to Egonu....something so easy to do.
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