|
|
Post by vbfamily on Jan 2, 2019 22:08:41 GMT -5
I'm curious to see what happens with the players who do call college coaches while still Sophomores. To date, the players were not expected to know the rules and couldn't break them. Now, I suppose it's on the coach/school not to answer a phone call from a parent or prospect? Or now since their is a rule the prospect can break, are they now expected to know the rules, and face consequences if they do? Just like at a tournament when a parent or player starts talking to a coach, they politely let them know they cannot talk to them and end the conversation. I imagine cell phone numbers will not be given out and work phones go directly to voicemail with now a message saying "if you are prospective student athlete graduating in 20__ or later, it is a violation to speak to you until June 15th following your sophomore year of high school. At that time, you as a prospective student athlete, or we as coaches can initiate a phone call in regard to recruiting. However, in the meantime, email us (which we cannot reply to) with updates including your schedule and we also hope you come to our camps and/or matches and follow our team on twitter and Instagram". Schools should still be able to send the intro letter with questionnaire I believe that shows initial interest. Student-Athletes and parents if they choose can start their research and "follow" them on social media. |
|
|
|
Post by n00b on Jan 2, 2019 23:46:01 GMT -5
I'm curious to see what happens with the players who do call college coaches while still Sophomores. To date, the players were not expected to know the rules and couldn't break them. Now, I suppose it's on the coach/school not to answer a phone call from a parent or prospect? Or now since their is a rule the prospect can break, are they now expected to know the rules, and face consequences if they do? Just like at a tournament when a parent or player starts talking to a coach, they politely let them know they cannot talk to them and end the conversation. I imagine cell phone numbers will not be given out and work phones go directly to voicemail with now a message saying "if you are prospective student athlete graduating in 20__ or later, it is a violation to speak to you until June 15th following your sophomore year of high school. At that time, you as a prospective student athlete, or we as coaches can initiate a phone call in regard to recruiting. However, in the meantime, email us (which we cannot reply to) with updates including your schedule and we also hope you come to our camps and/or matches and follow our team on twitter and Instagram". Schools should still be able to send the intro letter with questionnaire I believe that shows initial interest. Student-Athletes and parents if they choose can start their research and "follow" them on social media. Yep. Although coaches CAN answer the call and just say "sorry, can't talk". Also worth noting that the recruits themselves cannot commit any violations here that would get them in trouble (as somebody earlier stated). Only the coaches will be penalized if they continue the conversation. |
|
|
|
Post by n00b on Jan 2, 2019 23:49:26 GMT -5
If you can say anything you want as long as "tell Suzie" isn't included then this is absolutely worthless legislation. "Suzie is great. We're going to offer her the moment we're allowed" There's no directive there to pass on the message. But that's CLEARLY violating the intent of the rule. Ah but the point is it doesn’t actually happen until Junior year. The kid can’t commit until then. They’re not locked in. They can’t confirm with the coach and vice versa. A kid actually is allowed to verbally commit (because that isn't a thing that even exists in the eyes on the NCAA). However, it would clearly seem like the school made an offer and THAT part is what's against the proposed NCAA rules. That being said, if the college coach is kind-sorta-but-not-officially offering the kid through the club coach, then the recruit can certainly kinda-sorta-but-not-officially commit through the coach as well. |
|
|
|
Post by vbfamily on Jan 3, 2019 0:16:36 GMT -5
Just like at a tournament when a parent or player starts talking to a coach, they politely let them know they cannot talk to them and end the conversation. I imagine cell phone numbers will not be given out and work phones go directly to voicemail with now a message saying "if you are prospective student athlete graduating in 20__ or later, it is a violation to speak to you until June 15th following your sophomore year of high school. At that time, you as a prospective student athlete, or we as coaches can initiate a phone call in regard to recruiting. However, in the meantime, email us (which we cannot reply to) with updates including your schedule and we also hope you come to our camps and/or matches and follow our team on twitter and Instagram". Schools should still be able to send the intro letter with questionnaire I believe that shows initial interest. Student-Athletes and parents if they choose can start their research and "follow" them on social media. Yep. Although coaches CAN answer the call and just say "sorry, can't talk". Also worth noting that the recruits themselves cannot commit any violations here that would get them in trouble (as somebody earlier stated). Only the coaches will be penalized if they continue the conversation. Yes! |
|
|
|
Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 3, 2019 0:29:46 GMT -5
Nebraska recently cut loose a high profile recruit. If at the time that recruitment had been in direct violation of the rules, do you suppose a family that feels slighted might let that info out? Why would a college coach trust all their jilted recruits to keep the coach's secrets? I am a lot happier with the prospect of some coaches trying to communicate vaguely through channels that they have interest prior to official talks in 11th grade, than I am with a free for all where coaches talk directly to 8th graders and make them offers. More likely it will be to communicate interest with the object of getting the recruit to the school's camp, preferably before her sophomore year. If an under-the-table offer ("to reserve a scholarship") is made, it will be at the camp, which is where many offers are made now. Silence will be expected, or the offer could go away. If silence is broken, the coach simply denies that any offer was ever made. |
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Jan 3, 2019 4:47:06 GMT -5
Yes, but once again, "plausible deniability". Can you legitimately say, "I never made any promise of a scholarship" while at the same time making it clear that you are offering a scholarship? Of course you can. When you hold a $20 in your hand and ask the maitre d, "Isn't there some way we can skip the waiting list?", is that a bribe? You bet it's a bribe, but both parties can still pretend it wasn't a bribe until the maitre d actually takes the 20 and says, "OK, I can get you in in five minutes". I think we are getting a little lost in the weeds on this one. There is a world of difference between a college coach and a club coach having a carefully worded conversation to convey that the school has interest in a player, and actual conversations between the player and the college coach where they build a relationship and directly discuss an offer. For your analogy to work, you have to make it a nightclub with a very strict policy of firing waiters who accept bribes, and with a bouncer that won't let anybody through the door who is not 21. You send in your club coach with $20 (why? I don't know) to arrange a table for you a year from now. The bouncer will never let you in so you do not get to talk to the waiter, so you have to trust that the club coach actually did talk to the waiter, that the waiter really did take the money and agree to hold a table for you a year from now, and the waiter has to trust that nobody overheard that would report them to management and that both you and your coach are trustworthy and won't go to management. If somebody comes along in the meantime and offers $50 for your table, does the waiter take it and risk you going to management because you are pissed? Did the waiter promise a job to your club coach that he can't deliver and now the club coach may go to his management and report the waiter? Nebraska recently cut loose a high profile recruit. If at the time that recruitment had been in direct violation of the rules, do you suppose a family that feels slighted might let that info out? Why would a college coach trust all their jilted recruits to keep the coach's secrets? I am a lot happier with the prospect of some coaches trying to communicate vaguely through channels that they have interest prior to official talks in 11th grade, than I am with a free for all where coaches talk directly to 8th graders and make them offers. I believe that most coaches will follow the rules for the most part because there is too much risk for too little reward not to. You are taking my post way too literally. We already have the situation where firm offers can't actually be made until the NLI period. But verbal offers abound, even though they have no legal force. Under the new rules, as long as coaches are allow to "express interest" in underage recruits, how is that any different except for a veneer of faux non-contact? If anything, it perhaps leads to a situation that is worse for recruits, because now if coaches "express interest" in them and then later don't offer a scholarship, the coaches will not even be held to any peer pressure about "Minching". They can legitimately say that they never made an offer, because of course that would be against the rules. |
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Jan 3, 2019 4:48:35 GMT -5
Ah but the point is it doesn’t actually happen until Junior year. The kid can’t commit until then. They’re not locked in. They can’t confirm with the coach and vice versa. Silent verbals. A wink and a nod.... |
|
|
|
Post by mikegarrison on Jan 3, 2019 10:30:41 GMT -5
You are taking my post way too literally. We already have the situation where firm offers can't actually be made until the NLI period. But verbal offers abound, even though they have no legal force. Under the new rules, as long as coaches are allow to "express interest" in underage recruits, how is that any different except for a veneer of faux non-contact? If anything, it perhaps leads to a situation that is worse for recruits, because now if coaches "express interest" in them and then later don't offer a scholarship, the coaches will not even be held to any peer pressure about "Minching". They can legitimately say that they never made an offer, because of course that would be against the rules. How is that worse? The entire point is to take away validity from early commits. You describe one way the change will do that, then say that is why it is bad. No, that is why it is good. In my limited experience with this process, the wink and nod you describe is a joke and it won't happen that way in general. Right now verbal offers are allowed and expected. I think you dramatically overestimate the response by PSAs and families to coaches engaging in prohibited communication to make a prohibited offer. Recruiting has gotten dramatically younger over the last 15 years because there are no barriers to it and coaches are very competitive, not because it is healthy for the schools or the kids. Now there is the possibility of putting up real barriers that were implicitly believed to be there in the past. Lacrosse and softball were several years ahead of VB down the slippery slope of early recruiting. They passed these rules to save themselves. That is routinely ignored in discussions here, as is the very basic question of are their rules failing in the way you describe and do they want to go back? How well it works will just depend on how well it is followed. This early recruiting isn't something that coaches started doing because they wanted to. They do it because its an arms race. Coach X goes to recruit and finds out that Coach Y already got the commits. So next year Coach X goes out a year earlier and Coach Y finds out now he's the one who was too late. So the next year Coach Y goes out two years earlier. Etc. If most coaches decide to not bypass the rule, then, just like an arms control treaty, it could benefit everyone. But the problem is always what games theory calls "defectors". If there is reward for breaking the rules and punishment for keeping to them, you will end up with the rules being ignored. So it's key not to just write the rule, but also to make sure violation of it can be detected and punished. I think most coaches will likely want to rule to work and will follow them, but a few will be tempted to bypass them. What happens to those few will determine whether the rules succeed or fail. |
|
|
|
Post by itsallrelative on Jan 4, 2019 7:29:09 GMT -5
My only question is---has it been implemented long enough in Lax and Softball to know how it will work?
|
|
|
|
Post by SteveHolt on Jan 4, 2019 11:41:51 GMT -5
Does this affect camp correspondence? I mean you can send anything about camp, right?
Coaches and players should be able to get a feel for each other through that. Just no offers until after August 1 Junior year.
|
|
|
|
Post by c4ndlelight on Jan 11, 2019 15:36:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by redbeard2008 on Jan 12, 2019 13:43:39 GMT -5
If most coaches decide to not bypass the rule, then, just like an arms control treaty, it could benefit everyone. But the problem is always what games theory calls "defectors". If there is reward for breaking the rules and punishment for keeping to them, you will end up with the rules being ignored. So it's key not to just write the rule, but also to make sure violation of it can be detected and punished. I think most coaches will likely want to rule to work and will follow them, but a few will be tempted to bypass them. What happens to those few will determine whether the rules succeed or fail. Yeah, if coaches fear that other coaches are violating the recruiting-contact rules, through third-parties or at camps, that could cause them to do what they fear other coaches are already doing. The fear will be that, if they wait until it is legal to make recruiting contacts, most of the recruits will already be sewed-up. |
|
|
|
Post by rvdadvb on Feb 27, 2019 15:03:40 GMT -5
My daughter is going to get caught in the middle of this and it's going to get weird. Recent development with multiple teams showing interest and talking to some coaches now. Will get cut off from them completely in April when the legislation passes except them coming to watch tournaments. Will be able to talk to them again June 15th. Will have to figure out which summer camps to attend without being able to talk to them for a few months. Will be able to receive verbal offers/take visits in August. No real time during HS season to do visits. Going to be an interesting year!
Will we be able to schedule official/unofficial visits to take place after 8/1, but discussed prior to 8/1 after the new 6/15 contact date? Or would that be "forbidden recruiting discussion". In our state they can't start official Volleyball practices until 8/5, so doing a visit that first weekend would be perfect, but don't know if it is going to happen if we can't discuss it prior to 8/1.
It is the working assumption of all the coaches that we talk to that this legislation will pass.
|
|
|
|
Post by maɡˈnōlēə on Feb 27, 2019 20:05:14 GMT -5
My daughter is going to get caught in the middle of this and it's going to get weird. Recent development with multiple teams showing interest and talking to some coaches now. Will get cut off from them completely in April when the legislation passes except them coming to watch tournaments. Will be able to talk to them again June 15th. Will have to figure out which summer camps to attend without being able to talk to them for a few months. Will be able to receive verbal offers/take visits in August. No real time during HS season to do visits. Going to be an interesting year! Will we be able to schedule official/unofficial visits to take place after 8/1, but discussed prior to 8/1 after the new 6/15 contact date? Or would that be "forbidden recruiting discussion". In our state they can't start official Volleyball practices until 8/5, so doing a visit that first weekend would be perfect, but don't know if it is going to happen if we can't discuss it prior to 8/1. It is the working assumption of all the coaches that we talk to that this legislation will pass. What school year is your daughter? |
|
|
|
Post by rvdadvb on Feb 28, 2019 7:40:28 GMT -5
Sophomore
|
|
