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Post by d1psetter on Jan 14, 2019 11:12:32 GMT -5
I still don't see the point of the USA division. What happens to the teams who play but don't get a bid for Open but didn't play in the USA division. Do those teams have to play in Club knowing full well that they can beat the teams that qualify for the USA division? It seems like those Open teams who didn't get a bid are getting shortchanged because they choose to play with the best teams in the country as opposed to a significantly lower standard in the USA division.
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Post by ptyspiker14 on Jan 14, 2019 11:32:21 GMT -5
I still don't see the point of the USA division. What happens to the teams who play but don't get a bid for Open but didn't play in the USA division. Do those teams have to play in Club knowing full well that they can beat the teams that qualify for the USA division? It seems like those Open teams who didn't get a bid are getting shortchanged because they choose to play with the best teams in the country as opposed to a significantly lower standard in the USA division. You are correct. This is why I feel this system is broken. Someone said in the SCVA invite thread that it should be the top 10 (SC/Chi bid tourny) in open receive OPEN bids. The next 6 or however many USA bids available go to them if they choose to accept. However, they shouldn't trickle down past the bronze bracket (pending bracket sizes/layout) and those bids then go back into the At-Large pool. This in my opinion or else you will get teams that just missed out on open bids playing in club at nationals. That is if they didn't try for a USA or Open at large bid. |
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Post by d1psetter on Jan 14, 2019 11:53:33 GMT -5
For the recent SCVA Invitational, SG Elite got 2nd place in the 18 USA Division. So, as it stands right now, they earned a bid for USA Division at BJNC. In the 18 Open Division, Wave 18s did not get a bid for BJNC Open so as it stands, Wave would have to play BJNC Club. That seems strange to me if USAV considers the USA division the stopgap between Open and Club. Keep in mind, I have seen both teams play.
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Post by vboldschool on Jan 14, 2019 12:04:02 GMT -5
The USA division is a great addition. There are so many boys teams now, and the skill level so disparate that a new intermediate division is needed. This past weekend, almost every match in Open was contended, which was never the case before. No more 25-5, 25-7 blowouts. The USA matches were also competitive across the board, which makes for a richer experience for everyone.
I agree it complicates things, but I think calling it broken is an overstatement. Are there at-large bids for the USA division? That seems to be the right solution. I don't really like the idea of awarding teams that play Open with a consolation USA Bid award, instead of teams that fought hard in USA, finished high, and earned it. It for sure cheapens the USA division qualification process.
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Post by gonethenback on Jan 14, 2019 12:26:43 GMT -5
I think the USA division is a good addition with the increase in boys' teams and areas of new growth. As the system sorts itself this will continue to offer a good Nationals option for many competitive teams. I believe there were teams last year that competed in open division at bid tourneys but did not earn a bid that were entered in USA division at Nationals so there seems to be some At-large component to handle that possibility.
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Post by Semp12 on Jan 14, 2019 14:46:34 GMT -5
The Girl's have American, National, Open, Patriot, and USA divisions at their big age groups. Of course there is some overlap with the teams and levels. Also take into consideration many of these girl's bid tournaments book up within weeks of them opening up so trying to change your division may be challenging or even impossible. (Hopefully you pick the appropriate level when you register months before the tournament).
As far as I can see, if you don't win a bid at the first tournament or two, you either play the USA division and EARN your bid there or hope for an at-large. If the Open level is more competitive, then it sounds like it solves a problem.
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Post by Volleyfan024 on Jan 14, 2019 15:10:00 GMT -5
You guys are proposing logical ideas, but come on we know USAV doesn’t ever use this mythical logic!
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Post by bealzabubba on Jan 14, 2019 15:18:53 GMT -5
There are at large bids for USA, but not many.
From the "USAV Boys’ Bid Tournament Manual – September 2018":
"To participate in a USA Division at the BJNC, a Team must earn a bid from participating in an [Bid Tournament] USA Division – either winning the bid outright at an [Bid Tournament] or being selected for an At-Large Bid after competing in a BBT Open or USA Division (see Open At-Large Bids)."
The process is described on p. 12, and seems a bit wonky to me: the club applies for the at-large, and the committee ranks them all together, then assigns bids. But ... there look to be very limited at-large bids, at least in theory: there are 32 spots at BJNC for USA. (see p. 8), and 30 bids at the bid tournaments (p.10).
Like 18's, there is a similar issue in 16's: two top 5 SCVA teams failed to win a bid at JBI, in open.
The gold medal winner in 16 USA was SMBC (SCVA #27). Having seen all these clubs play (against my son's 15's): Those two teams absolutely should be in 16 open, and not club or even USA.
At the same time, like the SG 18's above, while SMBC is a very solid team, they simply could not have contended for an open bid, and USA was the best choice for that team. Same for the other 16 USA Bid winners: If a 16's team is challenged by a #3-#8 15's team, they're simply not going to be competitive in open.
Those clubs absolutely made the right call.
But I do agree there's a potential long term problem with "close" teams moving down from open to USA to ensure the bid, but there's also a problem with USA bids being awarded from Open - you're going back to really bad games on day 1.
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Post by MVBFAN on Jan 14, 2019 18:32:50 GMT -5
I think it just means you as a coach/director need to know the level that your team can play at. If you're not an Open Level team, it's NO fun going to a bid tournament and getting your brains beat in the first day then having overall no chance at winning the tournament or a bid. Teams can play USA earlier in the season, ensure they get a bid, then try to get their Open bid if they play another tournament. Or you go and play Open, realize you have a better chance in USA and go and earn it.
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Post by yorktowne12 on Jan 15, 2019 11:46:56 GMT -5
I was not a big fan of it at first but I like it. Its great for second teams in your club and third tier teams. Or top teams that are just always out of bid contention when all regions come together for an event.
This is the first time I have seen this many clubs NOT PLAY OPEN at events. And it makes the open division that much stronger at the qualifiers. So if your team 15 in California all the time you should probably thinking about playing USA or traveling to another qualifier. Play USA in one and Open in the other.
They want you to play in more than one qualifier a season. That make sense to me.
We had an awful showing this weekend, worst we played all year; we could run that event again this weekend and get a totally different result as I have seen happen. Some times its just not your weekend and you live another day at another event.
Should be an interesting weekend in chicago! And rochester looking to get lots and lots of snow. FUN TIMES!
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Post by ptyspiker14 on Jan 15, 2019 12:41:34 GMT -5
I was not a big fan of it at first but I like it. Its great for second teams in your club and third tier teams. Or top teams that are just always out of bid contention when all regions come together for an event. This is the first time I have seen this many clubs NOT PLAY OPEN at events. And it makes the open division that much stronger at the qualifiers. So if your team 15 in California all the time you should probably thinking about playing USA or traveling to another qualifier. Play USA in one and Open in the other. They want you to play in more than one qualifier a season. That make sense to me. We had an awful showing this weekend, worst we played all year; we could run that event again this weekend and get a totally different result as I have seen happen. Some times its just not your weekend and you live another day at another event. Should be an interesting weekend in chicago! And rochester looking to get lots and lots of snow. FUN TIMES! Do you have any idea who this Yorktowne Neva 18 black is? Shows in the team code they are the 4th team, but never heard anything about them. |
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Post by yorktowne12 on Jan 15, 2019 12:54:03 GMT -5
That is our Branch Off team. We run them under us they are one high school team.
They won 6 AA state titles in a row. We have two divisions AA and AAA
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vb88
Sophomore
Posts: 126 
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Post by vb88 on Jan 15, 2019 16:44:51 GMT -5
So for the Rochester tournament, USAV website says there are USA bids,
Event: Molten CAN-AM
Max Number of Bids:
14, 15, 16, 17 & 18 Open: 3
16 & 18 USA: 2
17 USA: 1
But there are no USA divisions, so any USA bids will be given?
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Post by V Ball Noob on Feb 18, 2019 20:00:13 GMT -5
So for the Rochester tournament, USAV website says there are USA bids, Event: Molten CAN-AM Max Number of Bids: 14, 15, 16, 17 & 18 Open: 3 16 & 18 USA: 2
17 USA: 1But there are no USA divisions, so any USA bids will be given? So far for the 18s in USA Division... -Can-Am did not give out either of their two allocated bids -Florida only awarded one of two -Southwest only awarded one of two They are targeting a field size of 32 this year (up from 24 last year), and had allocated 30 bids maximum to the various bid tournaments. So looks like they were planning on at least two at-large bids, but now are up to six (assuming they are still looking for a 32 team field). Last year they awarded 22 bids at the various bid tournaments and accepted two at-large bids. Both accepted teams competed in the Open Division during the bid-tournament season (WAVE 18 Kevin and Academy 181 Wave). Small sample size from last year, but my guess is that there will be some strong teams dropping into the USA division after the at-large process is completed. Oh, and having "Wave" somewhere in the team name is a big advantage in getting an at-large bid. |
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Post by bealzabubba on Feb 20, 2019 17:11:11 GMT -5
For St. Louis:
Division Teams Teams w/ Bids Max Bids Lowest Bid Position
Finish for Trickledown
18 Open 28 13 5 12th
18 USA 59 2 4 16th
To the original question: Looks like the point of the USA division is to give teams an opportunity to compete at nationals in a division other than club, and that the clubs are realizing this. (16 Division is similar)
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