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Post by 405LAX on Mar 22, 2019 10:58:04 GMT -5
I don't have an issue with AP broadcasting center court and whatever else they want to show but asking to simply place cameras on outer courts like FIVB has done for years now is NOT asking too much. Give casual viewers main coverage option, hardcore fans can pick. I don't see why this is difficult. It’s all about the $$$. How much would you be willing to pay for this? And BTW, the FIVB only does this for 5 Star events, and it’s not free. So how was I watching multiple courts for both Sydney & Doha, non-5 star events?
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Post by ajm on Mar 22, 2019 11:34:48 GMT -5
It’s all about the $$$. How much would you be willing to pay for this? And BTW, the FIVB only does this for 5 Star events, and it’s not free. So how was I watching multiple courts for both Sydney & Doha, non-5 star events? That was not the FIVB. It was either the local promoter or an offshore gambling site over a VPN. Go back and read the threads for those events to remember how difficult those streams were to find. The FIVB only livestreams the semis and finals on YouTube.
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Post by guest2 on Mar 22, 2019 11:49:03 GMT -5
Funny, we got a full time partner like amazon, and people b#@$, and give the broadcast crappy ratings... You know what happens? Amazon passes when the contract is up. Every single one of us should be sharing, and liking this or it will just go away. While the 1st season wasn't perfect, I still enjoyed the quality of the feed. And I'll hope they make some adjustments, since it was their 1st season. I'm a big fan of your posts, but I think this one is a little off. We should recommend or give positive reviews to something we didn't enjoy? If Amazon passes on renewal, and some of the Netflix non-renewals of niche products are troubling in that respect, it won't be because hardcore bvb fans gave negative reviews on Amazon, it will be because the AVP comprehensively fumbled this opportunity, destroying much of the enthusiasm many had for their product, not creating new fans, and failing to make changes when it became clear that fans hated certain aspects of their product. There were four months between the first and last events and the productions happened infrequently, every two weeks more or less. A few positive changes were made but many of the things that were disliked pretty uniformly, were not changed in all that time. Thats what bothers me more than anything, the lack of changes combined with the AVP's contemptuous attitude towards feedback from people who have been loyal to the brand for decades. The message that reached me as a fan is not, "hey we know you love this, be patient while we figure out how to best get it to you" it was "f you if you don't love our crummy work."
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Post by JB Southpaw on Mar 22, 2019 12:03:41 GMT -5
Funny, we got a full time partner like amazon, and people b#@$, and give the broadcast crappy ratings... You know what happens? Amazon passes when the contract is up. Every single one of us should be sharing, and liking this or it will just go away. While the 1st season wasn't perfect, I still enjoyed the quality of the feed. And I'll hope they make some adjustments, since it was their 1st season. I'm a big fan of your posts, but I think this one is a little off. We should recommend or give positive reviews to something we didn't enjoy? If Amazon passes on renewal, and some of the Netflix non-renewals of niche products are troubling in that respect, it won't be because hardcore bvb fans gave negative reviews on Amazon, it will be because the AVP comprehensively fumbled this opportunity, destroying much of the enthusiasm many had for their product, not creating new fans, and failing to make changes when it became clear that fans hated certain aspects of their product. There were four months between the first and last events and the productions happened infrequently, every two weeks more or less. A few positive changes were made but many of the things that were disliked pretty uniformly, were not changed in all that time. Thats what bothers me more than anything, the lack of changes combined with the AVP's contemptuous attitude towards feedback from people who have been loyal to the brand for decades. The message that reached me as a fan is not, "hey we know you love this, be patient while we figure out how to best get it to you" it was "f you if you don't love our crummy work." I think you can do both. I didn't drink Barefoot wine, but I sure liked their products on social media. Same with other AVP sponsors. Saying someone or something sucks isn't good feed back, just like the opening post of this subject. But to your point, AVP has never listened to it's fan base. Always followed their inner circle.
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Post by ajm on Mar 22, 2019 13:08:22 GMT -5
Perhaps they don’t always listen to the criticism or negative reviews, but that’s probably because with Amazon Prime they have much better tracking data than they ever did with their web site, and that data tells them exactly who’s watching and for how long. If you turn off the stream during interviews or the fluff pieces, they already know that! And that info is far more valuable to them than a few complaints on an obscure message board.
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Post by 405LAX on Mar 22, 2019 13:32:03 GMT -5
Perhaps they don’t always listen to the criticism or negative reviews, but that’s probably because with Amazon Prime they have much better tracking data than they ever did with their web site, and that data tells them exactly who’s watching and for how long. If you turn off the stream during interviews or the fluff pieces, they already know that! And that info is far more valuable to them than a few complaints on an obscure message board. Again, none of this addresses the main point here, cameras on EVERY court is not some pie-in-the-sky technology, P90 handled it with aplomb, we don't need announcers, just a cam. Stop trying to muddy the water with stuff that doesn't directly address this point. If the AVP doesn't want to give it to us, it's purely a case of them NOT LISTENING to our #1 request. There is no more spin on this matter.
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Post by guest2 on Mar 22, 2019 13:54:16 GMT -5
Perhaps they don’t always listen to the criticism or negative reviews, but that’s probably because with Amazon Prime they have much better tracking data than they ever did with their web site, and that data tells them exactly who’s watching and for how long. If you turn off the stream during interviews or the fluff pieces, they already know that! And that info is far more valuable to them than a few complaints on an obscure message board. Without adding in a human element whether its through some sort of focus grouping or perhaps Amazon's own feedback system, surveys whatever, those metrics will have limited value because they aren't contextualized. For example lets say there was a huge drop in viewership when a Sheila Shaw match started at 5pm on Friday. That could mean people hate Sheila Shaw or it could mean a new GOT episode dropped on HBO Go or the finals of the Pottstown Rumble were streamed. Likewise many fans could hate Kelli Tenant interviews but click to a different tab to read the news or watch the NBA, while they wait for her segment to end. On one day viewership may be high because of Saturday rainstorms all along the Eastern seaboard, another it may be low because a particularly attractive NFL game is on. Can Amazon measure if I muted the broadcast? Etc. etc. etc. Also I was primarily referring to the complaints on Amazon's feedback section. I don't expect the AVP or Amazon certainly, to monitor forums, but it seems reasonable to expect them to know what people are saying on their system that they set up to allow people to say things about their products. And of course we know that Amazon is aware of the negative comments there because they shut down said review system once it became clear how overwhelmingly negative opinion was. The idea that people don't really dislike the things that people in every forum (forgive the pun) where feedback is offered have said they dislike is a little credulous and I think the corollary idea that the weaknesses in the broadcast are subtle and difficult to discern - which would be the main reason why something like internal metrics would be necessary - doesn't seem to jibe with the broadcast I saw where most of the problems were prominent and hard to miss.
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Post by ajm on Mar 22, 2019 15:10:53 GMT -5
Perhaps they don’t always listen to the criticism or negative reviews, but that’s probably because with Amazon Prime they have much better tracking data than they ever did with their web site, and that data tells them exactly who’s watching and for how long. If you turn off the stream during interviews or the fluff pieces, they already know that! And that info is far more valuable to them than a few complaints on an obscure message board. Without adding in a human element whether its through some sort of focus grouping or perhaps Amazon's own feedback system, surveys whatever, those metrics will have limited value because they aren't contextualized. For example lets say there was a huge drop in viewership when a Sheila Shaw match started at 5pm on Friday. That could mean people hate Sheila Shaw or it could mean a new GOT episode dropped on HBO Go or the finals of the Pottstown Rumble were streamed. Likewise many fans could hate Kelli Tenant interviews but click to a different tab to read the news or watch the NBA, while they wait for her segment to end. On one day viewership may be high because of Saturday rainstorms all along the Eastern seaboard, another it may be low because a particularly attractive NFL game is on. Can Amazon measure if I muted the broadcast? Etc. etc. etc. Also I was primarily referring to the complaints on Amazon's feedback section. I don't expect the AVP or Amazon certainly, to monitor forums, but it seems reasonable to expect them to know what people are saying on their system that they set up to allow people to say things about their products. And of course we know that Amazon is aware of the negative comments there because they shut down said review system once it became clear how overwhelmingly negative opinion was. The idea that people don't really dislike the things that people in every forum (forgive the pun) where feedback is offered have said they dislike is a little credulous and I think the corollary idea that the weaknesses in the broadcast are subtle and difficult to discern - which would be the main reason why something like internal metrics would be necessary - doesn't seem to jibe with the broadcast I saw where most of the problems were prominent and hard to miss. As someone who has done work with online usage tracking and metrics (in a completely different industry) I can tell you that it is fairly common for a feature to have a few very loud and vocal criticisms, but when you actually look at the data you find that the feature is actually quite popular and even increasingly so. And yes, there are always individual corner cases where the metric doesn't measure exactly what you intended, but in general, and in aggregate, they do a pretty good job. The cool thing about the Amazon Prime deal is that they can now get into things like attribution, where they can measure exactly how many consumers watched the latest original Prime TV series only after seeing an advertisement for it during the AVP coverage. That kind of data is a gold mine for marketers, and I'm sure that's a big reason why Amazon is willing to invest some real money in the AVP.
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Post by ajm on Mar 22, 2019 15:18:29 GMT -5
Perhaps they don’t always listen to the criticism or negative reviews, but that’s probably because with Amazon Prime they have much better tracking data than they ever did with their web site, and that data tells them exactly who’s watching and for how long. If you turn off the stream during interviews or the fluff pieces, they already know that! And that info is far more valuable to them than a few complaints on an obscure message board. Again, none of this addresses the main point here, cameras on EVERY court is not some pie-in-the-sky technology, P90 handled it with aplomb, we don't need announcers, just a cam. Stop trying to muddy the water with stuff that doesn't directly address this point. If the AVP doesn't want to give it to us, it's purely a case of them NOT LISTENING to our #1 request. There is no more spin on this matter. It's not about technology, it's about money. I think p1440's growth struggles nicely illustrates that point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 15:31:33 GMT -5
they should have a nice camera on every court and put them up on something like hudl for the players
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Post by 405LAX on Mar 22, 2019 15:34:10 GMT -5
Again, none of this addresses the main point here, cameras on EVERY court is not some pie-in-the-sky technology, P90 handled it with aplomb, we don't need announcers, just a cam. Stop trying to muddy the water with stuff that doesn't directly address this point. If the AVP doesn't want to give it to us, it's purely a case of them NOT LISTENING to our #1 request. There is no more spin on this matter. It's not about technology, it's about money. I think p1440's growth struggles nicely illustrates that point. AP has cameras on most/all courts already, just make them available for everyone during tournament. Could sell sponsorships for these and place in the corner of screen to pay for streaming cost, likely make profit.
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Post by ajm on Mar 22, 2019 15:47:15 GMT -5
It's not about technology, it's about money. I think p1440's growth struggles nicely illustrates that point. AP has cameras on most/all courts already, just make them available for everyone during tournament. Could sell sponsorships for these and place in the corner of screen to pay for streaming cost, likely make profit. If they could turn a profit off it, they certainly would. The fact that they haven't done so already suggests it's not quite so simple.
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Post by acemand23 on Mar 22, 2019 15:49:07 GMT -5
Does AP offer any other multi camera broadcasts for events? This would require a larger pipe from the broadcast location, and would also skew or dilute the broadcast advertisements. What I mean is that they would have to be very good about having the same commercials at the same time across all tracks to measure marketing properly... or each broadcast becomes independent, and there is no way the numbers would support that model....
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Post by 405LAX on Mar 22, 2019 16:02:27 GMT -5
Does AP offer any other multi camera broadcasts for events? This would require a larger pipe from the broadcast location, and would also skew or dilute the broadcast advertisements. What I mean is that they would have to be very good about having the same commercials at the same time across all tracks to measure marketing properly... or each broadcast becomes independent, and there is no way the numbers would support that model.... AVP & AP's greatest fear, bigger numbers on outer courts due to viewers disgust with subpar announcing crew.
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Post by guest2 on Mar 23, 2019 3:23:03 GMT -5
Without adding in a human element whether its through some sort of focus grouping or perhaps Amazon's own feedback system, surveys whatever, those metrics will have limited value because they aren't contextualized. For example lets say there was a huge drop in viewership when a Sheila Shaw match started at 5pm on Friday. That could mean people hate Sheila Shaw or it could mean a new GOT episode dropped on HBO Go or the finals of the Pottstown Rumble were streamed. Likewise many fans could hate Kelli Tenant interviews but click to a different tab to read the news or watch the NBA, while they wait for her segment to end. On one day viewership may be high because of Saturday rainstorms all along the Eastern seaboard, another it may be low because a particularly attractive NFL game is on. Can Amazon measure if I muted the broadcast? Etc. etc. etc. Also I was primarily referring to the complaints on Amazon's feedback section. I don't expect the AVP or Amazon certainly, to monitor forums, but it seems reasonable to expect them to know what people are saying on their system that they set up to allow people to say things about their products. And of course we know that Amazon is aware of the negative comments there because they shut down said review system once it became clear how overwhelmingly negative opinion was. The idea that people don't really dislike the things that people in every forum (forgive the pun) where feedback is offered have said they dislike is a little credulous and I think the corollary idea that the weaknesses in the broadcast are subtle and difficult to discern - which would be the main reason why something like internal metrics would be necessary - doesn't seem to jibe with the broadcast I saw where most of the problems were prominent and hard to miss. As someone who has done work with online usage tracking and metrics (in a completely different industry) I can tell you that it is fairly common for a feature to have a few very loud and vocal criticisms, but when you actually look at the data you find that the feature is actually quite popular and even increasingly so. And yes, there are always individual corner cases where the metric doesn't measure exactly what you intended, but in general, and in aggregate, they do a pretty good job. The cool thing about the Amazon Prime deal is that they can now get into things like attribution, where they can measure exactly how many consumers watched the latest original Prime TV series only after seeing an advertisement for it during the AVP coverage. That kind of data is a gold mine for marketers, and I'm sure that's a big reason why Amazon is willing to invest some real money in the AVP. I don't dispute that scenario is something that happens, but what evidence do we have that it applies to this one? Are there any indicators that people like the Amazon broadcast? That is it is popular and that its popularity is growing? I am also somewhat familiar with how that data is used/collected, athough likely not as much as you are, and I would suggest that confirmation bias is absolutely rife throughout the industry, particularly when small amounts of data are all that is available, as in this case with 8 events, many of which took place in very different situations (May tourney competing with maybe baseball or NBA, June with no comp other than midseason mlb, Sept v football) And also when there are no credible baselines for comparison (I imagine they compare to NBC or the AVP.com stream but those are not good comparisons)
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