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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 20, 2019 10:26:55 GMT -5
The ball is never "harder" or "less hard" depending on who hit it. There are only really two variables in play: speed and spin. I'm perfectly willing to believe that "a heavy ball" is meaningless ... just something people say as an excuse when they misjudge the hit. But on the other hand, I've heard for years that some people hit "heavy balls" more than others. If that's not utter nonsense, then it should be able to be measured in either speed or spin or some combination of both. I don't believe that is true. Consider how the exit velocity of a baseball is dramatically different based on the weight of the bat. The strength and mass of the arm and hand hitting the ball matters, not just the speed. Perhaps you misunderstood. When I said "speed and spin" I meant "of the ball". Obviously "speed of the ball" is the same as "velocity of the ball" (except technically velocity is a vector and speed is a scalar, so that brings in the direction in which the ball was hit....)
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 20, 2019 10:30:44 GMT -5
To me, a good example of this contrast can be seen in the Minnesota opposite hitters going from 2012 to 2013. Katherine Harms had an incredibly fast armswing, and her hits would often bounce off the floor and into the high rafters. Adrianna Nora, on the other hand, probably buckled a few floorboards by burying her hits into the ground. Definitely a prime example of a heavy arm. I wonder also if there is some connection between "fast-twitch" athletes having the generally faster arms, too. I have yet to see a floorboard that was buckled or a spiked ball bounce into the rafters of any reasonably sized gym. I will say that the BALL IS NOT HEAVIER, so that means if there actually is a difference between how two hit balls bounce off the same floor then that difference can only be from the angle of incidence, the spin of the ball, or the speed of the ball as it hits. Those are the only real variables.
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Post by craftylefty on Mar 20, 2019 10:37:39 GMT -5
To me, a good example of this contrast can be seen in the Minnesota opposite hitters going from 2012 to 2013. Katherine Harms had an incredibly fast armswing, and her hits would often bounce off the floor and into the high rafters. Adrianna Nora, on the other hand, probably buckled a few floorboards by burying her hits into the ground. Definitely a prime example of a heavy arm. I wonder also if there is some connection between "fast-twitch" athletes having the generally faster arms, too. I have yet to see a floorboard that was buckled or a spiked ball bounce into the rafters of any reasonably sized gym. I will say that the BALL IS NOT HEAVIER, so that means if there actually is a difference between how two hit balls bounce off the same floor then that difference can only be from the angle of incidence, the spin of the ball, or the speed of the ball as it hits. Those are the only real variables. Lol look at this craftylefty guy who thinks floorboards actually buckle from a kill. What a noob. 😂
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Post by pepperbrooks on Mar 20, 2019 11:00:18 GMT -5
No one thinks the ball is _actually_ heavier...
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Post by azvb on Mar 20, 2019 11:09:16 GMT -5
“I’ll take Unflattering Nicknames for $200, Alex”.
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Post by Semp12 on Mar 20, 2019 11:11:57 GMT -5
No one thinks the ball is _actually_ heavier... Unless you've played in the rain with an old spalding beach volleyball. Now those things can get heavy.
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Post by donut on Mar 20, 2019 11:17:54 GMT -5
To me a heavy ball is one where the hitter doesn’t look like they crushed it, but it comes off the hand harrrrrdddd. And it happens consistently on all kinds of sets, whether in transition or serve receive. To me, physically a fast ball means a whip of an arm swing without as much drive through the ball and loses some momentum on impact, and a heavy ball is a slower arm swing with a lot of power through the ball that maintains it's speed right through contact. This is my favorite explanation so far. When I was reflecting on when I've used the term, it definitely has to do with "follow through" of the arm. Players I would say hit heavier balls: Fabris, Foecke, Paula, Fe Garay, Brankica Mihajlović. Additionally, I think you would be more likely to call a spike with less spin "heavy." That being said, it's definitely a subjective term. You can't change the weight of the ball. Would love to hear someone with a background in science/physics add some light here, but I'd imagine our subjective use of the word describes a combination of speed and spin. Would also love to hear if there are any other variables that would effect the sound the ball makes when it hits a body or the floor. (P.S. I also agree most tend to use the term more frequently with players who are heavier themselves, which probably warrants a discussion in itself.)
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Post by vollypopaz on Mar 20, 2019 11:35:38 GMT -5
To me, a good example of this contrast can be seen in the Minnesota opposite hitters going from 2012 to 2013. Katherine Harms had an incredibly fast armswing, and her hits would often bounce off the floor and into the high rafters. Adrianna Nora, on the other hand, probably buckled a few floorboards by burying her hits into the ground. Definitely a prime example of a heavy arm. I wonder also if there is some connection between "fast-twitch" athletes having the generally faster arms, too. I have yet to see a floorboard that was buckled or a spiked ball bounce into the rafters of any reasonably sized gym. I will say that the BALL IS NOT HEAVIER, so that means if there actually is a difference between how two hit balls bounce off the same floor then that difference can only be from the angle of incidence, the spin of the ball, or the speed of the ball as it hits. Those are the only real variables. I love how you are the only one using actual physics in this conversation. Everyone else is focused on the “appearance” rather than any actual correct science. The only other comments in the ballpark are the ones regarding the mass of the player/arm. For those whose physics is not strong, a hit is basically a “collision/explosion” in physics terms involving conservation of momentum and energy. You can change 2 things, velocity, or mass to affect the result. A more massive hitter with a very fast arm swing will produce the most ball speed after the hit. I think people see a massive player with a slow arm hitting harder than a small player with a faster arm and call that a “heavy ball”, because they don’t understand that the result is a straightforward application of physics. i put these two volleyball terms in the same category as the terms “athletic” vs “physical”. They don’t really mean much but people like to use them to describe players.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 12:25:58 GMT -5
To me, a good example of this contrast can be seen in the Minnesota opposite hitters going from 2012 to 2013. Katherine Harms had an incredibly fast armswing, and her hits would often bounce off the floor and into the high rafters. Adrianna Nora, on the other hand, probably buckled a few floorboards by burying her hits into the ground. Definitely a prime example of a heavy arm. I wonder also if there is some connection between "fast-twitch" athletes having the generally faster arms, too. I have yet to see a floorboard that was buckled or a spiked ball bounce into the rafters of any reasonably sized gym. I will say that the BALL IS NOT HEAVIER, so that means if there actually is a difference between how two hit balls bounce off the same floor then that difference can only be from the angle of incidence, the spin of the ball, or the speed of the ball as it hits. Those are the only real variables. The main difference in this thread is that you're arguing semantics, when the real question is "IS THERE A BETTER TERM TO USE?" because the OP literally identified that 'heavy' is likely a misuse of the word... aka nobody thinks the ball gains weight depending on who hits it. If you read all these posts and that's still what you're arguing, I don't think there's much hope for resolution in this thread.
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Post by mikegarrison on Mar 20, 2019 13:24:56 GMT -5
I have yet to see a floorboard that was buckled or a spiked ball bounce into the rafters of any reasonably sized gym. I will say that the BALL IS NOT HEAVIER, so that means if there actually is a difference between how two hit balls bounce off the same floor then that difference can only be from the angle of incidence, the spin of the ball, or the speed of the ball as it hits. Those are the only real variables. The main difference in this thread is that you're arguing semantics, when the real question is "IS THERE A BETTER TERM TO USE?" because the OP literally identified that 'heavy' is likely a misuse of the word... aka nobody thinks the ball gains weight depending on who hits it. If you read all these posts and that's still what you're arguing, I don't think there's much hope for resolution in this thread. No, I'm trying to bring the discussion around to actual physics. Robert K. Adair, in The Physics Of Baseball, made a very relevant observation. The first is that experienced players of a sport who report things like "she hits a heavy ball" should probably be believed, because they are the experts. But he also recognized that their physical explanations of what that means are probably wrong, because usually they aren't physicists. So if there really is such a thing as a "heavy ball", which I take to be one that feels like it is heavier -- it doesn't rebound off the arms like the player expects it to -- then since we know the ball isn't actually changing mass, what really is changing? Some people here have said that "to hit a heavy ball" simply means that the ball was moving faster than the defensive player expected, based on the armspeed of the hitter. I tend to doubt this is the actual explanation, however. I don't think that would be described as feeling "heavy", just hard-hit. I suspect that spin is involved. A ball with a lot of topspin is going to convert some of that spin into velocity when it hits off of something. I suspect that passers are adept at angling their arms so that topspin energy works in the favor of the passer in terms of popping the ball up in the air. If so, a ball hit with significantly less top-spin will not bounce off the arm the same way but might appear to "thud" against the arm and not bounce out with as much energy. This could be the source of the reports of "heavy balls". But that's just a theory. I would love to test it.
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Post by ned3vball on Mar 20, 2019 13:26:02 GMT -5
A "heavy" ball to me appears to be spinning less, and a ball that is spinning less appears to be going slower. So you are surprised when the perceived slower moving ball still blows up the defender, and we have coined the term "heavy" as a reason that happens.
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Post by Pipe Attack on Mar 20, 2019 13:46:15 GMT -5
After some thinking, I think body type does create the illusion of “heavy” ball. For example, look at Brazil’s opposites - Tandara vs Sheila. I always feel like Tandara hits such a heavy ball while Sheila while Sheila hit more of a fast ball. Is there any difference in mph though ... ? Or even Fawcett and Hodge/Hooker. Feel like Fawcett hit a heavier ball while Hodge or Hooker was more the fast type. Then there’s even like Boskovic and Zhu Ting. I would feel that Boskovic hits a heavy ball while Zhu Tings are faster. So I don’t know ... even if the speeds are inevitably equal. I feel like body type usually plays a role
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Post by hammer on Mar 20, 2019 15:27:40 GMT -5
Sadly most on this board are probably heavy. Please watch what you eat and get some exercise -- hopefully volleyball, but at least a couple of 15 minute walks per day. If you are fast, then keep up the good work.
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Post by sonofdogman on Mar 20, 2019 16:14:42 GMT -5
Several people have noted that one cannot change the mass of the ball - mostly true but the mass does change infinitesimally during it's heavy collisions due to subtle changes in internal pressure.
One person has noted how one obviously cannot change the weight of the ball - so completely incorrect that it's laughable yet the idea has not been ridiculed. Shows how much science volley talkers know.
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Post by Wolfgang on Mar 20, 2019 16:15:46 GMT -5
The announcers are just trying to be more metaphorical or otherwise more descriptive. Lily Kahumoku has been described as being a “poi pounder” but there’s no evidence she has ever pounded poi.
Greater mass Higher speed Comparisons to guns, cannons, and launchers Bomb metaphors and analogies Tears, rips, and other forms of destruction Chaos, mayhem, and high entropy Pain, hurt, and damage
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