|
Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Mar 20, 2019 18:33:57 GMT -5
The ball is never "harder" or "less hard" depending on who hit it. There are only really two variables in play: speed and spin. I'm perfectly willing to believe that "a heavy ball" is meaningless ... just something people say as an excuse when they misjudge the hit. But on the other hand, I've heard for years that some people hit "heavy balls" more than others. If that's not utter nonsense, then it should be able to be measured in either speed or spin or some combination of both. I don't believe that is true. Consider how the exit velocity of a baseball is dramatically different based on the weight of the bat. The strength and mass of the arm and hand hitting the ball matters, not just the speed. I don't think that's accurate. The reason mass matters with a bat is that the ball is traveling at a high rate of speed when contact is made. The mass of the bat matters very little in slow pitch softball because the ball is moving much slower when it meets the bat. It's the same with a volleyball. If the Lexi Sun and Mikaela Foecke both hit the ball with the same hand speed and with the same spin, the ball is going to be traveling at very similar speeds coming of their hand even though Mikaela is stronger and has more mass.
|
|
|
Post by sonofdogman on Mar 20, 2019 19:47:16 GMT -5
Someone please set up an experiment so we can make inaccurate observations, imprecise measurements and illogical conclusions.
|
|
|
Post by Wolfgang on Mar 20, 2019 20:28:18 GMT -5
I think the OP missed an opportunity to title this thread "Fast and Furious."
|
|
|
Post by hochee on Mar 20, 2019 21:04:10 GMT -5
The heavier person vs lighter person association makes intuitive sense to me. But if this is the case and there are a few collegiate/pro female heavy-ball hitters, then virtually every collegiate/pro male hitter is a heavy-ball hitter. However, I imagine a poll of male diggers would yield similar results to their female counterparts, in terms of proportion of perceived heavy-ball hitters. And I'll bet about 25-30% of hitters of each sex are considered heavy-ball hitters.
|
|
|
Post by hochee on Mar 20, 2019 21:07:16 GMT -5
I think the OP missed an opportunity to title this thread "Fast and Furious." Or missed an opportunity to just call it Charles Barkley.
|
|
|
Post by rblackley on Mar 21, 2019 7:55:35 GMT -5
The stronger heavier arm releases energy into the ball when contacted. This results in energy and velocity. A lighter arm with faster whip can also release the same energy into the ball. The perfect combination of the two yields the best result. Spin doesnt increase velocity, It just changes trajectory or curve as it flows thru the air. It also changes the direction the ball will richochete when hitting a stationary object. A no spin ball will knuckle thru the air like a float serve giving the passer a different problem when trying to receive it.
So when a coach says she hits a heavy ball he/she means the player has a strong heavy arm swing.
|
|
|
Post by stanfordvb on Mar 21, 2019 8:48:02 GMT -5
Since a hitter can't actually change the mass of the ball by hitting it, if there is any reality to a "heavy" ball then it must be some physical parameter. Spin, maybe? Does a "heavy" ball have a different spin to it? A lot of the hitter known for hitting heavy balls hit it pretty hard, but what makes it heavy is the lack of spin on it. Plummer and samedy and Foecke all have top spin on their hitter, but it’s not as much as we see from other players, this makes balls significantly harder to dig
|
|
|
Post by boh on Mar 21, 2019 9:09:57 GMT -5
I tend to agree with people saying the lack of spin on a hard hit ball makes it "heavy" while the hitters with a lot of spin and also hit it hard hit a "fast" ball. To me a "heavy" swing actually feels heavier passing it, but that could also be that the "heavy" swings I am digging (or more likely trying to dig) are actually hit faster than the "fast" swings.
This thread and the blocking thread are pretty solid off season topics, have enjoyed reading both.
|
|
|
Post by n00b on Mar 21, 2019 9:13:26 GMT -5
I don't believe that is true. Consider how the exit velocity of a baseball is dramatically different based on the weight of the bat. The strength and mass of the arm and hand hitting the ball matters, not just the speed. I don't think that's accurate. The reason mass matters with a bat is that the ball is traveling at a high rate of speed when contact is made. The mass of the bat matters very little in slow pitch softball because the ball is moving much slower when it meets the bat. It's the same with a volleyball. If the Lexi Sun and Mikaela Foecke both hit the ball with the same hand speed and with the same spin, the ball is going to be traveling at very similar speeds coming of their hand even though Mikaela is stronger and has more mass. I lob a volleyball at the same speed towards two people with bats. They swing the bats at the same speed and contact the ball in the same spot. However, one has a metal baseball bat and the other has a wiffle ball bat. Are you suggesting both volleyballs would be hit the same distance?
|
|
|
Post by sonofdogman on Mar 21, 2019 9:39:26 GMT -5
If you all are ready for the truth, let me know. I experimented. Tested just two variables: mass of attacker and armspeed of attacker. Measured impact force on ball, initial velocity of ball, impact force on a target ~7m from the point of contact, and the velocity at contact.
Results: faster swing generally increases the force and velocity, larger attacker generally increases the force and velocity.
Conclusion: "she hits a heavy ball" = she is a heavy girl.
Disclaimer: tomclen's previous work much cited in my official report
|
|
|
Post by boh on Mar 21, 2019 13:28:58 GMT -5
If you all are ready for the truth, let me know. I experimented. Tested just two variables: mass of attacker and armspeed of attacker. Measured impact force on ball, initial velocity of ball, impact force on a target ~7m from the point of contact, and the velocity at contact. Results: faster swing generally increases the force and velocity, larger attacker generally increases the force and velocity. Conclusion: "she hits a heavy ball" = she is a heavy girl. Disclaimer: tomclen's previous work much cited in my official report Some more empirical evidence against the heavy player = heavy ball theory. I am no expert, but this seems to be more of an issue with footwork
|
|
|
Post by boh on Mar 21, 2019 14:17:54 GMT -5
I am no expert, but this seems to be more of an issue with footwork Calculating conservation of momentum in a simple linear collision is easy. It starts to get a lot more complicated when calculating collision taking into account angular momentum of a baseball bat let alone a swinging arm. If you want to start bringing in subtle technical deficiencies in an obviously very accomplished player, then we are never going to solve this! I said I was no expert! Thanks for the headache though
|
|
|
Post by NebraskaVBfan93 on Mar 21, 2019 19:36:45 GMT -5
I don't think that's accurate. The reason mass matters with a bat is that the ball is traveling at a high rate of speed when contact is made. The mass of the bat matters very little in slow pitch softball because the ball is moving much slower when it meets the bat. It's the same with a volleyball. If the Lexi Sun and Mikaela Foecke both hit the ball with the same hand speed and with the same spin, the ball is going to be traveling at very similar speeds coming of their hand even though Mikaela is stronger and has more mass. I lob a volleyball at the same speed towards two people with bats. They swing the bats at the same speed and contact the ball in the same spot. However, one has a metal baseball bat and the other has a wiffle ball bat. Are you suggesting both volleyballs would be hit the same distance? No, I am not suggesting that at all. It's possible that either I didn't do a good job making my point or the very real possibility that I am full of crap and don't know what I am talking about. Hoping that it's option A, let my add something to your scenario. Whether it be a metal bat or a plastic bat, if swung at the same speed, the ball is going to travel the same distance regardless of who is swinging the bat. Again... I grudgingly concede it's likely I have no idea what I am talking about. If that's the case, I will be learning something new about physics.
|
|
|
Post by vollypopaz on Mar 21, 2019 20:39:13 GMT -5
I lob a volleyball at the same speed towards two people with bats. They swing the bats at the same speed and contact the ball in the same spot. However, one has a metal baseball bat and the other has a wiffle ball bat. Are you suggesting both volleyballs would be hit the same distance? No, I am not suggesting that at all. It's possible that either I didn't do a good job making my point or the very real possibility that I am full of crap and don't know what I am talking about. Hoping that it's option A, let my add something to your scenario. Whether it be a metal bat or a plastic bat, if swung at the same speed, the ball is going to travel the same distance regardless of who is swinging the bat. Again... I grudgingly concede it's likely I have no idea what I am talking about. If that's the case, I will be learning something new about physics. A baseball hitter and a volleyball hitter are two different situations. Most of the time the vb hitter is in the air which makes the mass of the player relevant. With the baseball hitter the collision is with the entire earth due to the fact that the hitter is “connected” to the earth by the friction at their feet. Also, since the batter is not a rigid body, the mass of the bat (among many other things) make a big difference in the result. The vb player being in the air at the time of the hit makes it more of a pure collision since there are no net forces other than gravity acting on the objects. This is where the mass of the player becomes a significant variable in the momentum conservation equations. If the player is say 25% heavier than another, this will have a measurable effect on the final velocity of the ball if all other factors are equal (which they never are).
|
|
|
Post by hochee on Mar 21, 2019 23:14:39 GMT -5
If you all are ready for the truth, let me know. I experimented. Tested just two variables: mass of attacker and armspeed of attacker. Measured impact force on ball, initial velocity of ball, impact force on a target ~7m from the point of contact, and the velocity at contact. Results: faster swing generally increases the force and velocity, larger attacker generally increases the force and velocity. Conclusion: "she hits a heavy ball" = she is a heavy girl. Disclaimer: tomclen's previous work much cited in my official report Don't most college teams and some club and high school teams measure speed for each of their hitters each year? I hoped someone would weigh in (thank you) on this topic with 15-years of results and observations
|
|