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Apr 10, 2019 20:27:13 GMT -5
Post by Brutus Buckeye on Apr 10, 2019 20:27:13 GMT -5
Okay, back to my question then. If there are 0.6% of the population that are transgendered AND given the USAV has a set policy for this AND given there are 400,000 girls playing club/HS, this means there should be 2,400 MTF athletes playing VB. Does anyone think there are? Has anyone seen this in club or HS? Or is this a complete non-issue (that does not make sense because why would USAV make rules if no one is using the rules?). First of all, it was stated that 0.6% of adults transgendered. Without any other data, I'll assume that means 50/50 which way they transitioned. So only 0.3% would be male->female. Another article I read, which also quoted the 0.6% number, said there were 150,000 children in the US between 13 and 17 who identify as transgender. So if half those are male to female, that means there are only about 75,000 transgendered children who might be involved as playing girls volleyball. But what percentage of girls play girls volleyball? Well, there are about 7.5M girls in US high schools and about 400,000 of them play volleyball. So that's 5%. 5% of the 75,000 male to female transgendered girls would be 3750. This number is probably a little high, as it implies a 1% transgender rate rather than a 0.6% transgender rate. So ... call it 2250, or about the same number you came up with. I think this means that either a) transgendered girls are less likely than average to want to play volleyball, or b) 2250 out of 400,000 is just too small of a number to notice (in a club of 300 players, that would be 2 of them). If male to female transgendered youths really had a huge advantage, like say those 2 kids were among the best 5 in the 300-person club, I think it would be noticed. That implies to me that either a) transgendered kids are less likely yo play volleyball, or else the physical advantages aren't so huge that they get noticed as being among the top players in the clubs. I doubt highly that the "female to male" crowd is trying to play men's sports. They are all playing women's sports, irrespective of which way they are "transitioning."
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Post by hoosierdraft on Apr 10, 2019 20:40:33 GMT -5
even when transphonia is completely removed from the picture. Appropriate slip of your spelling.
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Apr 10, 2019 20:47:32 GMT -5
Post by azvb on Apr 10, 2019 20:47:32 GMT -5
I think you have to separate adults from teens. Adults that are transitioning or have already transitioned may not have that large of an advantage if the studies (I know studies are biased to the side funding) are correct and the drugs have taken away any natural advantage (height is hard to take away though). I also think there is no advantage in 10-14 year olds since girls mature faster and a 14 year old girl likely is better than a good majority of 14 year old boys (maybe 13 is a better cut off). But at 16/17/18/19 I do not think there can really be a debate about whether a male fully past puberty is stronger/faster/taller than the average female. That is where the most "advantage" would be seen I think. And most of the stories on sprinting, running and wrestling have been at this age range. Maybe the number is so small it is completely unnoticed and VB is a team sport whereas the sports highlighted are one athlete beating another (and the implications that spin from that). I watched a freshman boys team last night. BIG difference in the freshman girls team I watched last fall.
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Apr 10, 2019 20:51:06 GMT -5
Post by holidayhusker on Apr 10, 2019 20:51:06 GMT -5
Okay, back to my question then. If there are 0.6% of the population that are transgendered AND given the USAV has a set policy for this AND given there are 400,000 girls playing club/HS, this means there should be 2,400 MTF athletes playing VB. Does anyone think there are? Has anyone seen this in club or HS? Or is this a complete non-issue (that does not make sense because why would USAV make rules if no one is using the rules?). First of all, it was stated that 0.6% of adults transgendered. Without any other data, I'll assume that means 50/50 which way they transitioned. So only 0.3% would be male->female. Another article I read, which also quoted the 0.6% number, said there were 150,000 children in the US between 13 and 17 who identify as transgender. So if half those are male to female, that means there are only about 75,000 transgendered children who might be involved as playing girls volleyball. But what percentage of girls play girls volleyball? Well, there are about 7.5M girls in US high schools and about 400,000 of them play volleyball. So that's 5%. 5% of the 75,000 male to female transgendered girls would be 3750. This number is probably a little high, as it implies a 1% transgender rate rather than a 0.6% transgender rate. So ... call it 2250, or about the same number you came up with. I think this means that either a) transgendered girls are less likely than average to want to play volleyball, or b) 2250 out of 400,000 is just too small of a number to notice (in a club of 300 players, that would be 2 of them). If male to female transgendered youths really had a huge advantage, like say those 2 kids were among the best 5 in the 300-person club, I think it would be noticed. That implies to me that either a) transgendered kids are less likely yo play volleyball, or else the physical advantages aren't so huge that they get noticed as being among the top players in the clubs. so? Since their are such a low percentage of players then its OK? Does that make any sense at all?
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Apr 10, 2019 20:53:35 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2019 20:53:35 GMT -5
I think you have to separate adults from teens. Adults that are transitioning or have already transitioned may not have that large of an advantage if the studies (I know studies are biased to the side funding) are correct and the drugs have taken away any natural advantage (height is hard to take away though). I also think there is no advantage in 10-14 year olds since girls mature faster and a 14 year old girl likely is better than a good majority of 14 year old boys (maybe 13 is a better cut off). But at 16/17/18/19 I do not think there can really be a debate about whether a male fully past puberty is stronger/faster/taller than the average female. That is where the most "advantage" would be seen I think. And most of the stories on sprinting, running and wrestling have been at this age range. Maybe the number is so small it is completely unnoticed and VB is a team sport whereas the sports highlighted are one athlete beating another (and the implications that spin from that). I watched a freshman boys team last night. BIG difference in the freshman girls team I watched last fall. You mean the freshmen girls are better correct? that would be 14s? That was kind of my thinking that girls are better than boys in the years boys are just hitting puberty and are all awkward.
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Apr 10, 2019 20:58:29 GMT -5
Post by dc on Apr 10, 2019 20:58:29 GMT -5
/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1066594171929092096&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwwos.nine.com.au%2Fnews%2Fhannah-mouncey-helps-australia-qualify-for-handball-world-cup%2F38b51d8a-dc34-4795-80ce-0ed9e08554a8
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Apr 10, 2019 20:58:40 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2019 20:58:40 GMT -5
First of all, it was stated that 0.6% of adults transgendered. Without any other data, I'll assume that means 50/50 which way they transitioned. So only 0.3% would be male->female. Another article I read, which also quoted the 0.6% number, said there were 150,000 children in the US between 13 and 17 who identify as transgender. So if half those are male to female, that means there are only about 75,000 transgendered children who might be involved as playing girls volleyball. But what percentage of girls play girls volleyball? Well, there are about 7.5M girls in US high schools and about 400,000 of them play volleyball. So that's 5%. 5% of the 75,000 male to female transgendered girls would be 3750. This number is probably a little high, as it implies a 1% transgender rate rather than a 0.6% transgender rate. So ... call it 2250, or about the same number you came up with. I think this means that either a) transgendered girls are less likely than average to want to play volleyball, or b) 2250 out of 400,000 is just too small of a number to notice (in a club of 300 players, that would be 2 of them). If male to female transgendered youths really had a huge advantage, like say those 2 kids were among the best 5 in the 300-person club, I think it would be noticed. That implies to me that either a) transgendered kids are less likely yo play volleyball, or else the physical advantages aren't so huge that they get noticed as being among the top players in the clubs. so? Since their are such a low percentage of players then its OK? Does that make any sense at all? I did not want to speak about whether it is okay or not. I wanted to know if all the debate is moot. My assumption is that there are NOT 2,000 MTF playing club and there are not even 20 playing. Am I wrong? That is all I wanted to know. Can anyone think of MTF playing club. Everyone should be able to come up with 1-2 at every club. I have seen zero at tournaments but that might be the courts that I am watching since I am only watching open predominantly. But if the "advantage" argument is true, the MTF athletes should be playing open. Can anyone state "I know of XX athletes playing open now that are MTF?" I DO NOT want to know names nor clubs at all. I want to understand if this even exists at the teen level.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:03:21 GMT -5
reader likes this
Post by azvb on Apr 10, 2019 21:03:21 GMT -5
I watched a freshman boys team last night. BIG difference in the freshman girls team I watched last fall. You mean the freshmen girls are better correct? that would be 14s? That was kind of my thinking that girls are better than boys in the years boys are just hitting puberty and are all awkward. Haha. Actually, no. The boys were better. Boys club is picking up in Arizona. They are starting younger now, so technically, they are up to speed with the girls. And physically, they are stronger, faster, jump higher, etc. In the Varsity match last night, the opposing team had a DS that I swear looked 8 years old. But he could jump serve, dive, etc. First time I coached a JV boys volleyball team I appreciated their physical skills, even if they lacked the technical skill of the girls. They picked things up a lot faster than the girls I had coached. And the lack of drama was very refreshing 😀. Edit: and I think most above average height adolescent players will be awkward when they first start out, male or female. Like Bambi on ice.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:19:19 GMT -5
Post by Brutus Buckeye on Apr 10, 2019 21:19:19 GMT -5
As recently as 10-20 years ago, a guy trying to sign his son up for a girls vb team would have bought himself a one way ticket to a padded cell.
If you object to it today, all of a sudden you are the one that is getting fitted for a straitjacket.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:24:28 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Fight On! on Apr 10, 2019 21:24:28 GMT -5
As recently as 10-20 years ago, a guy trying to sign his son up for a girls vb team would have bought himself a one way ticket to a padded cell. If you object to it today, all of a sudden you are the one that is getting fitted for a straitjacket. Lol. The melodrama is hilarious.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:25:40 GMT -5
Post by azvb on Apr 10, 2019 21:25:40 GMT -5
Don’t know how feasible this is, but perhaps club could use a height/weight determination. 10-year-old boys and girls could play on the team, I believe with no problem. And even some14-year-old boys could play on a team with girls if they hadn’t started puberty-like the kid I saw last night.
My daughter played in a boys soccer league at 12-13. She kept up with them fine. Then we played a team that had a kid looked 18-facial hair and everything. He just towered over everyone and dominated. He also broke my daughters leg on a tackle. But I think he would have broken any of our players legs. Because of his size, he should have moved up an age division, IMO.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:28:52 GMT -5
Post by holidayhusker on Apr 10, 2019 21:28:52 GMT -5
As recently as 10-20 years ago, a guy trying to sign his son up for a girls vb team would have bought himself a one way ticket to a padded cell. If you object to it today, all of a sudden you are the one that is getting fitted for a straitjacket. Lol. The melodrama is hilarious. nope...not melodramatic, just honest and true. I am all for whatever people want to be and who they want to love. I am also for fairness in sports. If we don't honor that then the true integrity of the sport will get lost forever. Once we open the door then their is no going back. Arguing that their is only a few so why not seems ridiculous. You either believe in fairness or you don't. Otherwise why care about steroid use or any other enhancement if you are not willing to admit a geneticly made boy that is transitioning into a women doesn't have a big advantage. The brazilian player is a prime exampe of how unfair that can be.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:33:05 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Fight On! on Apr 10, 2019 21:33:05 GMT -5
Lol. The melodrama is hilarious. nope...not melodramatic, just honest and true. I am all for whatever people want to be and who they want to love. I am also for fairness in sports. If we don't honor that then the true integrity of the sport will get lost forever. Once we open the door then their is no going back. Arguing that their is only a few so why not seems ridiculous. You either believe in fairness or you don't. Otherwise why care about steroid use or any other enhancement if you are not willing to admit a geneticly made boy that is transitioning into a women doesn't have a big advantage. The brazilian player is a prime exampe of how unfair that can be. How many matches does a girl play in her club and high school seasons? A handful of matches against a trans player who is in the front for a few rotations isn’t exactly eroding the fairness of the entire sport.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:35:57 GMT -5
Post by azvb on Apr 10, 2019 21:35:57 GMT -5
nope...not melodramatic, just honest and true. I am all for whatever people want to be and who they want to love. I am also for fairness in sports. If we don't honor that then the true integrity of the sport will get lost forever. Once we open the door then their is no going back. Arguing that their is only a few so why not seems ridiculous. You either believe in fairness or you don't. Otherwise why care about steroid use or any other enhancement if you are not willing to admit a geneticly made boy that is transitioning into a women doesn't have a big advantage. The brazilian player is a prime exampe of how unfair that can be. How many matches does a girl play in her club and high school seasons? A handful of matches against a trans player who is in the front for a few rotations isn’t exactly eroding the fairness of the entire sport. A girl starts club at 12? She plays a bazillion matches! And club teams face each other multiple times. Four years of high school, 25 matches/season, at least 100. More than a handful. Even if they only faced a trans player once, in the State Championship, fairness has to be considered. Maybe if those few rotations were in the back row instead of the front, not much of an issue.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:39:57 GMT -5
Post by holidayhusker on Apr 10, 2019 21:39:57 GMT -5
nope...not melodramatic, just honest and true. I am all for whatever people want to be and who they want to love. I am also for fairness in sports. If we don't honor that then the true integrity of the sport will get lost forever. Once we open the door then their is no going back. Arguing that their is only a few so why not seems ridiculous. You either believe in fairness or you don't. Otherwise why care about steroid use or any other enhancement if you are not willing to admit a geneticly made boy that is transitioning into a women doesn't have a big advantage. The brazilian player is a prime exampe of how unfair that can be. How many matches does a girl play in her club and high school seasons? A handful of matches against a trans player who is in the front for a few rotations isn’t exactly eroding the fairness of the entire sport. its eroding the integrity of the sport....PERIOD. Dont be so PC that you cannot see what is good for a sport long term.
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