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Apr 11, 2019 0:37:48 GMT -5
Post by azvb on Apr 11, 2019 0:37:48 GMT -5
We had a male-to-female transgender athlete playing in our club two years ago. And no one knew. Those of us at the top level knew because we had to make sure we were compliant with all documentation and information, as well as ability to support our athlete. But outside of a few select people, not even her teammates knew. And, what will be shocking for some of you, it wasn't a big deal. She was good, but not the best player on her own team, even. She just wanted to play volleyball. And guess what? The world didn't end. I’m glad she got to play. Not surprised her teammates didn’t know. There’s a show on TV about a transgender girl. Jett I think is her name. She started her transition pretty young, before puberty. She’s 16 or so now, and really pretty.
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Apr 11, 2019 0:52:05 GMT -5
Post by mikegarrison on Apr 11, 2019 0:52:05 GMT -5
Yes, yes, Rachel Dolezal. So what?
And the whole "who is black?" thing is even more fraught with issues than "who is female?". Some slave states used to have laws that said "one drop" of black blood (any black ancestor) made you black. Others said any less than 1/8 black was not black. Or that slave status depended on the slave status of the mother. (That's why 3/4-European Sally Hemings was a slave, despite being half-sister to her owner, Thomas Jefferson's first wife Martha). Most of the Hemings/Jefferson children "escaped" to the north, where they "passed" as white.
The thing is, throughout US history from then until today, being white gives a person so many more advantages than being black that most people who could "pass" for either tend to identify as white (at least to other people). Similarly, I'll bet that most intersex people who could pass for either tend to pass themselves off to others as male.
Not all black people were bothered by Dolezal. Many people say race is a social construct, and if that's true, then everybody is what race society says they are. The big problem I think many black people had with Dolezal was that it wasn't society that said she was black, but rather Rachel herself.
Anyway, that whole subject is even more of a minefield than the transgender thing. And it has nothing to do with volleyball.
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Apr 11, 2019 0:55:12 GMT -5
Post by mikegarrison on Apr 11, 2019 0:55:12 GMT -5
We had a male-to-female transgender athlete playing in our club two years ago. And no one knew. Those of us at the top level knew because we had to make sure we were compliant with all documentation and information, as well as ability to support our athlete. But outside of a few select people, not even her teammates knew. And, what will be shocking for some of you, it wasn't a big deal. She was good, but not the best player on her own team, even. She just wanted to play volleyball. And guess what? The world didn't end. That was my point. The numbers suggest that many large clubs probably do have a few transgender players. People just don't know, that's all. And that implies that most of them are not playing at a level noticeably different than their teammates.
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Apr 11, 2019 0:56:16 GMT -5
Post by jcvball22 on Apr 11, 2019 0:56:16 GMT -5
We had a male-to-female transgender athlete playing in our club two years ago. And no one knew. Those of us at the top level knew because we had to make sure we were compliant with all documentation and information, as well as ability to support our athlete. But outside of a few select people, not even her teammates knew. And, what will be shocking for some of you, it wasn't a big deal. She was good, but not the best player on her own team, even. She just wanted to play volleyball. And guess what? The world didn't end. I’m glad she got to play. Not surprised her teammates didn’t know. There’s a show on TV about a transgender girl. Jett I think is her name. She started her transition pretty young, before puberty. She’s 16 or so now, and really pretty. And yet you somehow seem rather worried that this is going to be a huge issue....
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Apr 11, 2019 4:49:56 GMT -5
Post by ned3vball on Apr 11, 2019 4:49:56 GMT -5
This is pretty topical since every single democrat in the house co-sponsored a bill to amend the 64 civil rights act to include transgendered. This would FORCE every public university to allow men who identify as women on women's teams. Not transitiioning. Identifying. This will obviously pass the house but likely get held in the senate until the democrats regain control. Whether you like it or not, this is going to become law. The fact that no one has said they know of even a handful of teens that are currently doing this tells me this is not really an issue other than political parties wanting to make it an issue. But, this will become law in the next five years and it may become more prevalent at the college level. judiciary.house.gov/news/press-releases/chairman-nadler-opening-statement-historic-hearing-hr-5-equality-actWondering, seriously, I am, if a white male could identify as a black woman and submit an application to dental school as such. You'd probably want to start with something a little more plausible like native american and see if you can pull that off first.
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Post by ned3vball on Apr 11, 2019 5:07:23 GMT -5
Lol. The melodrama is hilarious. nope...not melodramatic, just honest and true. I am all for whatever people want to be and who they want to love. I am also for fairness in sports. If we don't honor that then the true integrity of the sport will get lost forever. Once we open the door then their is no going back. Arguing that their is only a few so why not seems ridiculous. You either believe in fairness or you don't. Otherwise why care about steroid use or any other enhancement if you are not willing to admit a geneticly made boy that is transitioning into a women doesn't have a big advantage. The brazilian player is a prime exampe of how unfair that can be. If you read some articles about the states where they have enacted rules to let transgender athletes compete in the sex they identify with, the arguments have a common theme. They make a distinction between what is right and what is fair. It is more important to do the "right" thing than to do what is "fair" since fair is a tougher thing to define. The "right" thing is to let everyone live the identity they want. There are a very few examples of this being an issue (CT HS Track for example), and in those cases it will probably fail most peoples "fair" test (including mine), but we have to look at the big picture. It will not be the end of sports, just a very few lost matches for the greater good.
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Apr 11, 2019 6:03:14 GMT -5
azvb likes this
Post by dc on Apr 11, 2019 6:03:14 GMT -5
nope...not melodramatic, just honest and true. I am all for whatever people want to be and who they want to love. I am also for fairness in sports. If we don't honor that then the true integrity of the sport will get lost forever. Once we open the door then their is no going back. Arguing that their is only a few so why not seems ridiculous. You either believe in fairness or you don't. Otherwise why care about steroid use or any other enhancement if you are not willing to admit a geneticly made boy that is transitioning into a women doesn't have a big advantage. The brazilian player is a prime exampe of how unfair that can be. If you read some articles about the states where they have enacted rules to let transgender athletes complete in the sex they identify with, the arguments have a common theme. They make a distinction between what is right and what is fair. It is more important to do the "right" thing than to do what is "fair" since fair is a tougher thing to define. The "right" thing is to let everyone live the identity they want. There are a very few examples of this being an issue (CT HS Track for example), and in those cases it will probably fail most peoples "fair" test (including mine), but we have to look at the big picture. It will not be the end of sports, just a very few lost matches for the greater good. Good post, thank you! It doesn't seem necessarily true to me that there will be no going back. There may be some sorting out that can take place as we see the real world manifestations develop. What happens if you witness an extreme example of a biological male taking over a women's season or event because this person identifies as female? I don't know but I don't think I'd like to see it myself. But we may be able to sort out some sort of balance and accommodation for the opportunity for the individual and the integrity and fairness for the league/event of the women. In the meantime, as ned3 says there are very few examples of this being an issue we can try to relax and 'breathe'. Jenner says, “I remember back in the ’70s, all the Soviet women, I even wondered, ‘are they on the right team?’ This isn’t easy stuff to deal with, and I think (the IOC) is doing a good job and studied the subject. The big questions are with testosterone (levels) for (transgender) females and if males who transition to female are going to have a tremendous advantage. Other organizations will have to follow the Olympic movement because there’s going to be a transgender (person) coming out in just about every sport. Just watch.” from "Caitlyn Jenner's growth into transgender advocate role"
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Post by holidayhusker on Apr 11, 2019 6:09:23 GMT -5
nope...not melodramatic, just honest and true. I am all for whatever people want to be and who they want to love. I am also for fairness in sports. If we don't honor that then the true integrity of the sport will get lost forever. Once we open the door then their is no going back. Arguing that their is only a few so why not seems ridiculous. You either believe in fairness or you don't. Otherwise why care about steroid use or any other enhancement if you are not willing to admit a geneticly made boy that is transitioning into a women doesn't have a big advantage. The brazilian player is a prime exampe of how unfair that can be. If you read some articles about the states where they have enacted rules to let transgender athletes complete in the sex they identify with, the arguments have a common theme. They make a distinction between what is right and what is fair. It is more important to do the "right" thing than to do what is "fair" since fair is a tougher thing to define. The "right" thing is to let everyone live the identity they want. There are a very few examples of this being an issue (CT HS Track for example), and in those cases it will probably fail most peoples "fair" test (including mine), but we have to look at the big picture. It will not be the end of sports, just a very few lost matches for the greater good. . The right thing in their opinion which is hardly fair
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Apr 11, 2019 7:17:14 GMT -5
Post by trainermch on Apr 11, 2019 7:17:14 GMT -5
I would have thought this thread would be found on Off the Net.
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Post by Fight On! on Apr 11, 2019 7:21:08 GMT -5
Equity and equality aren’t the same thing. Is it “fair” that millions of girls never get to play (club) vball because it is too expensive, or there aren’t accessible opportunities where they live? No. But some posters aren’t worried about fairness then, only if their DD might lose a match or two to a trans player. Also for the medical science and stats-minded, this is as close as I have seen to actual evidence about the advantage (or not) of trans athletes in terms of performance: www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including
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Apr 11, 2019 8:56:19 GMT -5
Post by stanfordvb on Apr 11, 2019 8:56:19 GMT -5
I do not think they should be allowed to play beyond highchool. They naturally are born to be stronger, taller, faster. That Brazilian player (I think Brazilian idk) absolutely dominates when she plays and hits the ball signifigantly harder than the people she’s playing against. All over in many sports you see trans athletes (male to female) dominated all the other girls. The two track stars from New York I believe are dusting all the competition, a trans female wrestler has never lost during her entire high school career. The Australian handball player who I suggest you look up on online and tell me that looks remotely fair. It shouldn’t be allowed
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Apr 11, 2019 10:19:29 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2019 10:19:29 GMT -5
When Tiffany was playing as male in the men's league she was just average. I think he/she was playing in Belgium where the level is very low. He/she would not have been good enough to find a team in the Brazil men's superliga.
But now as a female Tiffany can be one of the best players in the women's Superliga.
Tiffany is not good as Egonu Zhu or Boskovic because she was just a below average male player. But her past as a male helps her to be on the same level as other average female players.
Let's say if a good male player like Leon or Zaytsev becomes a transgender... They would be killing everyone in the women's game. Egonu and Zhu would look like a nobody next to her/him.
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Apr 11, 2019 10:29:33 GMT -5
Post by reader on Apr 11, 2019 10:29:33 GMT -5
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Apr 11, 2019 10:31:09 GMT -5
Post by mikegarrison on Apr 11, 2019 10:31:09 GMT -5
When Tiffany was playing as male in the men's league she was just average. I think he/she was playing in Belgium where the level is very low. He/she would not have been good enough to find a team in the Brazil men's superliga. But now as a female Tiffany can be one of the best players in the women's Superliga. Tiffany is not good as Egonu Zhu or Boskovic because she was just a below average male player. But her past as a male helps her to be on the same level as other average female players. Let's say if a good male player like Leon or Zaytsev becomes a transgender... They would be killing everyone in the women's game. Egonu and Zhu would look like a nobody next to her/him. The flip side of that is, of course, that it is VERY VERY VERY RARE that a professional male athlete switches gender. Most transgender people are not professional athletes.
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Apr 11, 2019 10:32:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2019 10:32:32 GMT -5
Wondering, seriously, I am, if a white male could identify as a black woman and submit an application to dental school as such. My god. Does your ignorance know no bounds? Have you ever made any effort to educate yourself at all? Or, is spouting off incredibly hurtful rhetoric while simultaneously dehumanizing and delegitimizing your fellow neighbor just a hobby? I truly don't understand how people on this site like you. I think you are responding too emotionally to AZ's comment. If you READ the actual bill they are proposing, AZVB has a VERY legitimate point. The bill would open up the possibility that would have to be decided by the supreme court on the extent of "identifying". The insertion of "identifying as" and creation of another protected group would support the contention that you must respect (and give the rights awarded to) anyone that identifies as one of the existing groups. This is a logical question, not one of "dehumanizing". You should apologize because you are the one that lept to conclusions (I expect you did not read the full bill).
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