SCVA Spring Season Update Regarding Frozen Rosters

[d1psetter]

So I just saw this on a SCVA club's website regarding upcoming spring season tryouts:

For athletes that played in the 2018/2019 Fall Season, SCVA has updated their rules. Any athlete that competed in the 2019 Boys Junior Invitationals is "FROZEN" to that club. Athletes have the opportunity to make a new team within the club but they are not allowed to try out at a new club until the Fall Season of 2019.

So is this true? I thought the rosters will only be frozen if a club earned a bid (Open, USA) for the upcoming BJNC. 

[yorktowne12]

It is up to the region what they want to do with transfers. What probably happened was too many complaints came into the office about transfers. So they decided to say NONE can happen.

Our region - Mid March everyone is released who does not have an open bid. However! If your club goes to nationals you must go with that team and you can not go to another program. Both clubs also have to agree on the transfer.

[bealzabubba]

Apr 11, 2019 13:08:59 GMT -5 d1psetter said:

So I just saw this on a SCVA club's website regarding upcoming spring season tryouts:
...
So is this true? I thought the rosters will only be frozen if a club earned a bid (Open, USA) for the upcoming BJNC. 

Source?

Short version of my response: Doesn't seem accurate, but I don't know for sure.

Long version:

This position is inconsistent with the rule in the SCVA Parent Handbook 2018/2019 rule I, p. 7, which freezes rosters only on acceptance of a bid, and I see nothing on SCVA's website about it.

Your statement (or the website's) appears to be an interpretation of a new (for boys) USAV Rule published last September:

Frozen Player Rules

Once a junior player has participated in a BJNC qualifying Event (BBT), he may not be on the
Official Roster of, or participate in, another BJNCs qualifying with a different club.
Example: a player plays on a club in a BBT in an attempt to qualify. The player’s Team does
not qualify. That player may not transfer to another club to attempt to qualify.



The full rules can be found on USAV Bid Manual, 09/2018 rev, page 27, and you can find that here:
https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Volleyball/Calendar/2019/June/30/BJNC/Participant-Info/Tournament-Manual


Someone has apparently read this to mean:
Participate in a bid tourney but don't earn one? Player is frozen to club, but can move teams within club.


(Earning a bid, applying for at-large would not change).

This probably does make some sense to non-rule interpretation fanatics (ummm... like me) and is correct if the team is planning on going to the East Coast Championships, which can award a bid. Other than that, SCVA teams have passed the "attempt to qualify" stage.

I view the the problem as this interpetation is not quite what the USAV rule says - because there's no more "attempt to qualify" in a BBT, and this rule specifically does not reference seeding events (one day tourneys or WCC) or the BJNC.

BBT has a specific definition, and it does not include the BJNC (they are referenced separately throughout the rules), and this interpretation is inconsistent with the fact that the BJNC is specifically referenced in the next three specific rules on frozen rosters (Open, Club, At-large), which preclude players from "Qualified" (i.e. have a bid) teams from moving, but do not address players from non-qualified teams.

So, in my view, if the kid is on a non-qualified team and wants to go to a team that already has a bid, this rule doesn't apply.

[bealzabubba]

Apr 11, 2019 13:50:40 GMT -5 yorktowne12 said:

Both clubs also have to agree on the transfer.

This was the case with SCVA last year (personal knowledge of a transfer from a non-qualified team to an open qualified team).

[G$]

Replying mainly to bump this up again. Hoping somebody knows the correct answers here. I did hear from a club director this year is "different" at SCVA.
Completely understand a bid to EITHER Open level, or even USA level freezes the athlete. Hoping somebody has more info regarding a freeze for an athlete who is not yet qualified.

[bealzabubba]

TTT - anyone know for sure? Spring tryouts are coming up, and some teams have roster spots available.

[d1psetter]

So no one knows what SCVA's stand on this is huh?

[G$]

If this is true and interpreted the way it sounds
*************
Frozen Player Rules

Once a junior player has participated in a BJNC qualifying Event (BBT), he may not be on the
Official Roster of, or participate in, another BJNCs qualifying with a different club.
Example: a player plays on a club in a BBT in an attempt to qualify. The player’s Team does
not qualify. That player may not transfer to another club to attempt to qualify.

The full rules can be found on USAV Bid Manual, 09/2018 rev, page 27, and you can find that here:
www.teamusa.org/USA-Volleyball/Calendar/2019/June/30/BJNC/Participant-Info/Tournament-Manual
*****************************

This is a terrible move by SCVA.
There will literally be 100s of kids who want to play at nationals, who simply are unable to join a qualifying team. (because they played in a qualifier) There will be teams who need bodies to play USA or CLUB division, with willing players to join, but unable to do so.
If the goal is to GROW THE GAME, how does it make sense to eliminate the chance for an able bodied player to contribute to ANY team?

Next season, there will be FAR LESS TEAMS (with much larger rosters each one), as you cannot risk playing for a team who may not get a bid.
It will be critical to join a team you believe will qualify for nationals, either by earning an open bid, or through the at-large process.

I understand the headache of legislating transfers, and the release process, etc....but the old process was GOOD. If you qualify, you are locked.
Any smaller clubs will have a much worse time.... as they dont always have other teams a player can join after being locked to that club.

I cannot get a reply from SCVA, nor do I expect to get one. This change will prove to be short lived I hope. Next year the "on the bubble" teams will not get a fair shake from players, because those players cannot risk missing nationals after being locked to that "bubble" team or club.

[VBSH 2]

Apr 24, 2019 14:35:28 GMT -5 G$ said:

If this is true and interpreted the way it sounds
*************
Frozen Player Rules

Once a junior player has participated in a BJNC qualifying Event (BBT), he may not be on the
Official Roster of, or participate in, another BJNCs qualifying with a different club.
Example: a player plays on a club in a BBT in an attempt to qualify. The player’s Team does
not qualify. That player may not transfer to another club to attempt to qualify.

The full rules can be found on USAV Bid Manual, 09/2018 rev, page 27, and you can find that here:
www.teamusa.org/USA-Volleyball/Calendar/2019/June/30/BJNC/Participant-Info/Tournament-Manual
*****************************

This is a terrible move by SCVA.
There will literally be 100s of kids who want to play at nationals, who simply are unable to join a qualifying team. (because they played in a qualifier) There will be teams who need bodies to play USA or CLUB division, with willing players to join, but unable to do so.
If the goal is to GROW THE GAME, how does it make sense to eliminate the chance for an able bodied player to contribute to ANY team?

Next season, there will be FAR LESS TEAMS (with much larger rosters each one), as you cannot risk playing for a team who may not get a bid.
It will be critical to join a team you believe will qualify for nationals, either by earning an open bid, or through the at-large process.

I understand the headache of legislating transfers, and the release process, etc....but the old process was GOOD. If you qualify, you are locked.
Any smaller clubs will have a much worse time.... as they dont always have other teams a player can join after being locked to that club.

I cannot get a reply from SCVA, nor do I expect to get one. This change will prove to be short lived I hope. Next year the "on the bubble" teams will not get a fair shake from players, because those players cannot risk missing nationals after being locked to that "bubble" team or club.

Geez, what happens if your team falls apart from Jan to June?  I know that happened to my son 2 years ago.  and
it happens frequently to a lot of kids.

[bealzabubba]

TTT, again - anyone know for sure? Spring tryouts were absolutely packed at our club, and a number of the boys were from teams w/o bids.
(and a ton of frosh/soph's who just "discovered" V-ball).

[d1psetter]

My son tried out for a socal club and the director told me that he could not transfer to his club because my son's current club played in the Boys' Invitational.

[hotshy]

First post, this should be fun lol

Just looking at the wording of the rule, one could argue that this only pertains to teams STILL trying to qualify for nationals:

“Once a junior player has participated in a BJNC QUALIFYING Event (BBT), he may not be on the
Official Roster of, or participate in, another BJNCs QUALIFYING with a different club.
Example: a player plays on a club in a BBT in an ATTEMPT to qualify. The player’s Team does
not qualify. That player may not transfer to another club to ATTEMPT to qualify.”

Keywords off the ruling are qualifying (not qualified) and attempt. Doesn’t say anything about transferring to a team that is qualified already for nationals. Based off the example given at the end, the rule is set to stop teams still trying to qualify for a bid from gaining players that have already tried qualifying on another team/club. Seems to me that if a team already has a bid, they should be free to still add players if need be.

[bealzabubba]

May 6, 2019 12:02:44 GMT -5 hotshy said:

First post, this should be fun lol

Just looking at the wording of the rule, one could argue that this only pertains to teams STILL trying to qualify for nationals:

“Once a junior player has participated in a BJNC QUALIFYING Event (BBT), he may not be on the
Official Roster of, or participate in, another BJNCs QUALIFYING with a different club.
Example: a player plays on a club in a BBT in an ATTEMPT to qualify. The player’s Team does
not qualify. That player may not transfer to another club to ATTEMPT to qualify.”

Keywords off the ruling are qualifying (not qualified) and attempt. Doesn’t say anything about transferring to a team that is qualified already for nationals. Based off the example given at the end, the rule is set to stop teams still trying to qualify for a bid from gaining players that have already tried qualifying on another team/club. Seems to me that if a team already has a bid, they should be free to still add players if need be.

Totally agree - that's the same analysis I believe I made above - but rules, like statutes, are interpreted differently than there plain meaning suggests.

[VolleyFanFL]

This is an interesting take on this. Just to clarify, If a player from a club/team which has not qualified chooses to transfer it must be to a team which has already qualified? He may not transfer to a team which is seeking to qualify but has not already done so?

[bealzabubba]

May 7, 2019 7:19:14 GMT -5 VolleyFanFL said:

This is an interesting take on this. Just to clarify, If a player from a club/team which has not qualified chooses to transfer it must be to a team which has already qualified? He may not transfer to a team which is seeking to qualify but has not already done so?

That's exactly what the USAV rule says - see my post above.

The issue here is there's a rumor, specific to SCVA, that the bid-qualified team can't accept any players if they played on a team at JBI (as most SCVA teams don't go to other bid tourneys).  In past years, that was Ok, and that is consistent with my analysis of the rules (but.. not a director / SCVA official) so long as the player's former team "released" him to the new club.

A player transferring to a team that's not trying to qualify or play USA/Open seems copacetic in all cases, which kind of addresses the "club falls apart" issue.