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Post by ironhammer on Apr 25, 2019 0:57:41 GMT -5
Billy Bean and Carl McGown would also agree that a sample size of 1 is not statistically significant. Same here. I tend to be wary about claims that any one coaching technique is the BEST way. I don't necessarily have anything against the cauldron system, just that I don't think it can be applied to all teams.
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Post by salsolomon on Apr 25, 2019 8:53:44 GMT -5
I really like the cauldron used in portions of practice or portions of the week...the reason I use it only sparingly is to encourage risk taking and mistake making in practice The cauldron teaches competitiveness which is also important, so there is value there for sure. However, if athletes are always worried about getting scored and evaluated, they are less likely to stretch their comfort zones in efforts to improve their skill base. In my opinion, great tool, use is doses. I am thinking that it will be something we will use in one or two drills during every practice. This is a good approach - you can't score everything or else your players will never feel comfortable pushing to the edge of their abilities. We have tried color-coding drills on the whiteboard - stuff in red is hard core competitive time that goes into the cauldron. Players are practicing playing how they would play in a match - get in the zone and battle. Coaches are not giving feedback on fundamentals or pushing players to try new things, more about decision-making, eyework, proper execution of team concepts. Other activities in practice (that don't go in the cauldron) are where we push players to get out of their comfort zone, try new things, focus on fundamentals and be totally ok with mistakes as part of the learning process. The color-coding can help players know what their mindset should be at a give time.
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Post by coahc21 on Apr 25, 2019 10:55:26 GMT -5
I am thinking that it will be something we will use in one or two drills during every practice. This is a good approach - you can't score everything or else your players will never feel comfortable pushing to the edge of their abilities. We have tried color-coding drills on the whiteboard - stuff in red is hard core competitive time that goes into the cauldron. Players are practicing playing how they would play in a match - get in the zone and battle. Coaches are not giving feedback on fundamentals or pushing players to try new things, more about decision-making, eyework, proper execution of team concepts. Other activities in practice (that don't go in the cauldron) are where we push players to get out of their comfort zone, try new things, focus on fundamentals and be totally ok with mistakes as part of the learning process. The color-coding can help players know what their mindset should be at a give time. Wow love the color coding idea...definitely going to incorporate that
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Post by kingofcrank on Apr 27, 2019 12:41:28 GMT -5
I played on a DI team just recently and we used the cauldron for practice. As soon as we started doing it, we started winning championships and haven't moved from the top of the conference since. Just some warnings: I believe that it takes a certain kind of athlete to do this. We played every day (6 on 6) 3 sets to 15 and 3 matches. We had weights twice a week on top of this. We had little to no injuries but the level of athlete we had was maybe top 10%. Every starting pin was touching 10'+ and front squatting 250+ (250 lbs being the absolute lower end). If you do not have competitive athletes, it will not work. This is because the most important people are the pushers (players who rank in the middle). Sure, the most pressure is on the top players because they are more concerned with not falling out of the leads week to week but if the people who are not in the top often, or never, do not push those at the top, the leaders are never challenged and hence never get better. We have the #7,#8, and #9 ranking on the leader board as the most competitive players on the team. Even though they were not always leading, we don't win championships without them because those at the top of the leader board never have to push. Sometimes, the ones at the bottom become complacent and don't try to push in tournaments anymore (eventually, you cut those players because they don't make anyone better). You need to have players who know how to compartmentalize. When you're in constant competition with your own teammates, the dynamic of the team changes. We, fortunately, were able to be best buds off the court but come for blood as soon as we stepped in the gym. It's rare that you can curse and teammate and then go to dinner right after practice. Winning helps but when the rankings get released at the end of the practice week and you see someone has made it into the starting lineup because their average is one thousandth of a point greater than yours, it's hard to come back the next week and push again that hard. The mentally strong will survive and the others eventually quit or are removed. A major con is that you end up letting the players just play and your coaching suffers because if you help a certain player (give them hints on how to win and play better), then other players will see it as bias and you trying to help another player into the lineup. Seems petty but it definitely happened. I think the cauldron helps you figure out who your best all-around players are--who can win with anyone. Does that necessarily mean that these are the players who should start every game, no. Sometimes it does though. I still think that it's important to drill and not just play, play, play everyday. Then again, playing volleyball makes you better at playing volleyball. I do think, however, that it was a disadvantage for us from a cerebral standpoint. Our volleyball IQ was not great in the sense that we could verbalize our thoughts on the actions we were taking. However, it was incredibly high given that we played so much, we know what to expect and we began to learn how to catalog players. We learned each other's habits and we caught on to tendencies faster. In a game, we were able to do this and adapt much quicker. We know how to read and anticipated based on a player's body position (what's possible? what does she do when she looks like this?). It got to a point where we played so much,were so competitive, and were playing 9 sets a day, that we it came time to play an official match, it was truly a break for us. The biggest pro to this was that because we were so competitive with one another, it prepared us for the conference match-ups and a lot of the pressure was taken off of us. My biggest concern would be making sure that you have athletes that can withstand that level of play. We never regulated how many jumps or swings we got per week. We just played, played, played. It makes for a fun practice because you get to compete in true game situations and not bore yourself to death drilling every day. As a coach now, I worry about making sure that we monitor athletes for injury-prevention. We were fortunate enough to have an excellent strength coach when I played. I was front squatting 300+ my freshman year. I didn't have to worry about not being strong enough to withstand the practices week to week. However, I can imagine that will not be the case for many teams, and it hasn't been from ones that I've coached since then. This is predominately just my take on a superficial level. It has little to do with the actually style of tournaments we played and more just of the realities of what I experienced when I played through it. I have participated in other types of player cauldrons too but none that were nearly as competitive or physically demanding. Hope this helps (if even in some small way). Your insight is incredibly helpful. I didn't think that anyone would be able to give me a players perspective and I really appreciate it. We have some crazy competitive kids on our team and the reason we are doing it is to get some more toughness out of them. They way you're described getting after it on the court and then still being "friends" afterwards is something that we preach to the girls all the time. Do you think it would have been different if the cauldron had been based on more than just 6v6? I plan on weighing drills while still adding points to them. (individual reps will be worth the least amount, and 6v6 drills will be worth the most points) And, we will only use about 2 drills per practice for the cauldron rankings. I agree with you that you need a team that is similar in skill level and able to compete with each other. We will test it out this year because the real competitive kids will arrive in 2020. Again, thank you for your insight!
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Post by kingofcrank on Apr 27, 2019 12:45:37 GMT -5
I am thinking that it will be something we will use in one or two drills during every practice. This is a good approach - you can't score everything or else your players will never feel comfortable pushing to the edge of their abilities. We have tried color-coding drills on the whiteboard - stuff in red is hard core competitive time that goes into the cauldron. Players are practicing playing how they would play in a match - get in the zone and battle. Coaches are not giving feedback on fundamentals or pushing players to try new things, more about decision-making, eyework, proper execution of team concepts. Other activities in practice (that don't go in the cauldron) are where we push players to get out of their comfort zone, try new things, focus on fundamentals and be totally ok with mistakes as part of the learning process. The color-coding can help players know what their mindset should be at a give time. We will color code the cauldron drills on our practice plan. We post it in the locker room the day before practice so they have no excuse not to come prepared.
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 28, 2019 3:40:06 GMT -5
I agree with you that you need a team that is similar in skill level and able to compete with each other. We will test it out this year because the real competitive kids will arrive in 2020. Um ... I thought the whole point of this was to not have the coach prejudge who the "competitive kids" are, but rather to have them revel themselves?
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Post by bkedane on Apr 28, 2019 9:40:15 GMT -5
How many NCAA D1 championship teams have been committed to the "cauldron" approach? Any team besides Waahington one year?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 10:19:42 GMT -5
I played on a DI team just recently and we used the cauldron for practice. As soon as we started doing it, we started winning championships and haven't moved from the top of the conference since. Just some warnings: I believe that it takes a certain kind of athlete to do this. We played every day (6 on 6) 3 sets to 15 and 3 matches. We had weights twice a week on top of this. We had little to no injuries but the level of athlete we had was maybe top 10%. Every starting pin was touching 10'+ and front squatting 250+ (250 lbs being the absolute lower end). If you do not have competitive athletes, it will not work. This is because the most important people are the pushers (players who rank in the middle). Sure, the most pressure is on the top players because they are more concerned with not falling out of the leads week to week but if the people who are not in the top often, or never, do not push those at the top, the leaders are never challenged and hence never get better. We have the #7,#8, and #9 ranking on the leader board as the most competitive players on the team. Even though they were not always leading, we don't win championships without them because those at the top of the leader board never have to push. Sometimes, the ones at the bottom become complacent and don't try to push in tournaments anymore (eventually, you cut those players because they don't make anyone better). You need to have players who know how to compartmentalize. When you're in constant competition with your own teammates, the dynamic of the team changes. We, fortunately, were able to be best buds off the court but come for blood as soon as we stepped in the gym. It's rare that you can curse and teammate and then go to dinner right after practice. Winning helps but when the rankings get released at the end of the practice week and you see someone has made it into the starting lineup because their average is one thousandth of a point greater than yours, it's hard to come back the next week and push again that hard. The mentally strong will survive and the others eventually quit or are removed. A major con is that you end up letting the players just play and your coaching suffers because if you help a certain player (give them hints on how to win and play better), then other players will see it as bias and you trying to help another player into the lineup. Seems petty but it definitely happened. I think the cauldron helps you figure out who your best all-around players are--who can win with anyone. Does that necessarily mean that these are the players who should start every game, no. Sometimes it does though. I still think that it's important to drill and not just play, play, play everyday. Then again, playing volleyball makes you better at playing volleyball. I do think, however, that it was a disadvantage for us from a cerebral standpoint. Our volleyball IQ was not great in the sense that we could verbalize our thoughts on the actions we were taking. However, it was incredibly high given that we played so much, we know what to expect and we began to learn how to catalog players. We learned each other's habits and we caught on to tendencies faster. In a game, we were able to do this and adapt much quicker. We know how to read and anticipated based on a player's body position (what's possible? what does she do when she looks like this?). It got to a point where we played so much,were so competitive, and were playing 9 sets a day, that we it came time to play an official match, it was truly a break for us. The biggest pro to this was that because we were so competitive with one another, it prepared us for the conference match-ups and a lot of the pressure was taken off of us. My biggest concern would be making sure that you have athletes that can withstand that level of play. We never regulated how many jumps or swings we got per week. We just played, played, played. It makes for a fun practice because you get to compete in true game situations and not bore yourself to death drilling every day. As a coach now, I worry about making sure that we monitor athletes for injury-prevention. We were fortunate enough to have an excellent strength coach when I played. I was front squatting 300+ my freshman year. I didn't have to worry about not being strong enough to withstand the practices week to week. However, I can imagine that will not be the case for many teams, and it hasn't been from ones that I've coached since then. This is predominately just my take on a superficial level. It has little to do with the actually style of tournaments we played and more just of the realities of what I experienced when I played through it. I have participated in other types of player cauldrons too but none that were nearly as competitive or physically demanding. Hope this helps (if even in some small way). Your insight is incredibly helpful. I didn't think that anyone would be able to give me a players perspective and I really appreciate it. We have some crazy competitive kids on our team and the reason we are doing it is to get some more toughness out of them. They way you're described getting after it on the court and then still being "friends" afterwards is something that we preach to the girls all the time. Do you think it would have been different if the cauldron had been based on more than just 6v6? I plan on weighing drills while still adding points to them. (individual reps will be worth the least amount, and 6v6 drills will be worth the most points) And, we will only use about 2 drills per practice for the cauldron rankings. I agree with you that you need a team that is similar in skill level and able to compete with each other. We will test it out this year because the real competitive kids will arrive in 2020. Again, thank you for your insight! Our tournaments were weighted as well. Serve receive tournaments were weighted as .5 as not all players get as many reps (those who play in games/middles/setters) and 2 v 2 was worth 1 point and 6 v 6 1.5 or 2 depending on what we needed to focus on that week. Weights varied. That’s a great idea to incorporate that. Not sure why, but I’ve I got a feeling I know who you are. If I’m right, because of how close knit that conference is and where the team finished last season, this could be the exact push the athletes need to get them past that threshold if the athletes are competitive as you say they are. Good luck!
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Post by mikegarrison on Apr 28, 2019 11:22:47 GMT -5
How many NCAA D1 championship teams have been committed to the "cauldron" approach? Any team besides Waahington one year? In volleyball, or in any sports? For instance, what Anson Dorrance called "the cauldron" has been the basic training system for competitive rowing since time immemorial. I would go so far as to guess that EVERY college rowing champion has used the method of swapping rowers into and out of their top boat and measuring whether the boat rowed faster or not.
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 28, 2019 12:13:50 GMT -5
Wow! What a fantastic and insightful post by @voleibolista who is now in my Top 5 Posters list.
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Post by bkedane on Apr 28, 2019 17:31:18 GMT -5
How many NCAA D1 championship teams have been committed to the "cauldron" approach? Any team besides Waahington one year? In volleyball, or in any sports? For instance, what Anson Dorrance called "the cauldron" has been the basic training system for competitive rowing since time immemorial. I would go so far as to guess that EVERY college rowing champion has used the method of swapping rowers into and out of their top boat and measuring whether the boat rowed faster or not. Was wondering about volleyball. I know Washington did for their championship year. Any others?
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Post by kingofcrank on Apr 29, 2019 8:36:08 GMT -5
I agree with you that you need a team that is similar in skill level and able to compete with each other. We will test it out this year because the real competitive kids will arrive in 2020. Um ... I thought the whole point of this was to not have the coach prejudge who the "competitive kids" are, but rather to have them revel themselves? Can a coach predict and not prejudge at the same time? It will be an entirely new year with a new cauldron. Anything can happen.
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Post by kingofcrank on Apr 29, 2019 8:39:07 GMT -5
Your insight is incredibly helpful. I didn't think that anyone would be able to give me a players perspective and I really appreciate it. We have some crazy competitive kids on our team and the reason we are doing it is to get some more toughness out of them. They way you're described getting after it on the court and then still being "friends" afterwards is something that we preach to the girls all the time. Do you think it would have been different if the cauldron had been based on more than just 6v6? I plan on weighing drills while still adding points to them. (individual reps will be worth the least amount, and 6v6 drills will be worth the most points) And, we will only use about 2 drills per practice for the cauldron rankings. I agree with you that you need a team that is similar in skill level and able to compete with each other. We will test it out this year because the real competitive kids will arrive in 2020. Again, thank you for your insight! Our tournaments were weighted as well. Serve receive tournaments were weighted as .5 as not all players get as many reps (those who play in games/middles/setters) and 2 v 2 was worth 1 point and 6 v 6 1.5 or 2 depending on what we needed to focus on that week. Weights varied. That’s a great idea to incorporate that. Not sure why, but I’ve I got a feeling I know who you are. If I’m right, because of how close knit that conference is and where the team finished last season, this could be the exact push the athletes need to get them past that threshold if the athletes are competitive as you say they are. Good luck! It sounds like you might know exactly who this is! Thank you!
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