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Post by c4ndlelight on May 3, 2019 10:51:12 GMT -5
I get where she’s coming from, but I don’t think those situations she was talking about have happened in volleyball. Women are getting tons of opportunity to coach volleyball. Wow, you appear to honestly be saying that without a trace of irony. 21 basketball championships by female head coaches, and 11 of 14 B1G women's basketball programs are led by women, and they are concerned with the direction of the sport. Zero volleyball championships by female head coaches and 1 of 14 B1G women's program led by a woman and you are genuinely bragging about how much opportunity there is for women. The acceptance of this is truly alarming. The state of the sport is little better than it was 30 years ago, when a certain disgraced coach argued the USAV couldn't discipline him because so many coaches were doing the same thing. The attitudes expressed here are not encouraging at all for the future of the sport. Muffett did at Notre Dame what Debbie Brown couldn’t. Russ did at Penn St. what Renee Portland and Coquese Washington couldn’t. No woman volleyball coach did what Pat Summit did. Why are you blaming men for building championship programs? And the Championship programs that have recently turned over (UW/Stanford) would have women head coaches if the women assistants the schools would have hired in a heartbeat (or directly asked to take the job) took the jobs. Why is there only one woman HC in the B1G? Because there were more but they got fired for not producing, there is a large number of male coaches who have been highly successful and aren’t turning over openings, and CJL/Salima/KBB and others have ceded head coaching opportunities available to them to males making new hires go disproportionately in that direction. And the B1G is not representative of the collegiate coaching landscape as a whole - women are getting plenty of opportunities to be head coaches.
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Post by Wolfgang on May 3, 2019 11:23:00 GMT -5
So, what did the coaches talk about during this meeting?
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Post by bkedane on May 3, 2019 12:41:24 GMT -5
So, what did the coaches talk about during this meeting? Scheduling, recruiting, and cheating.
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Post by pepperbrooks on May 3, 2019 12:43:25 GMT -5
Not talking about Big Ten specifically but collegiate volleyball coaching in general. And as has been pointed out, who should have been hired instead of the people in place? I have heard-- but do not know for fact -- that Bernthal Booth, Johnson-Lynch, Bobbi Peterson, and many others have been pursued for more high profile jobs, and they didn't take them or didn't pursue them. So who should have been hired instead? Let's assume that you are right, and there aren't nearly enough "qualified" candidates. Again, there are 7 times the number of girls playing volleyball as there are boys in high school. In college the number is 10 to 1. Straight up, the coaching pool should be 7 to 10 women for every man. Instead, at the top conference it is 1 woman and 13 men. Based on those numbers, if there aren't enough female candidates, then we have a fundamental and systemic problem with sexism in women's volleyball going back decades. On top of that, the "unqualified" tag apparently only applies to women, because Rose, Cook, Aird, Tamas, Shondell, Hambly and Hughes each had no college HC experience prior to being hired for B1G HC jos. Well if the coaching pool isn't large enough, how is that the sport's fault? Maybe the overwhelming majority of female players have historically not gone into coaching? Again, if there are deserving female candidates out there being denied jobs because they're female, that's a problem. I see no evidence that that is happening.
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Post by huskerjen on May 3, 2019 12:46:12 GMT -5
Let's assume that you are right, and there aren't nearly enough "qualified" candidates. Again, there are 7 times the number of girls playing volleyball as there are boys in high school. In college the number is 10 to 1. Straight up, the coaching pool should be 7 to 10 women for every man. Instead, at the top conference it is 1 woman and 13 men. Based on those numbers, if there aren't enough female candidates, then we have a fundamental and systemic problem with sexism in women's volleyball going back decades. On top of that, the "unqualified" tag apparently only applies to women, because Rose, Cook, Aird, Tamas, Shondell, Hambly and Hughes each had no college HC experience prior to being hired for B1G HC jos. Well if the coaching pool isn't large enough, how is that the sport's fault? Maybe the overwhelming majority of female players have historically not gone into coaching? Again, if there are deserving female candidates out there being denied jobs because they're female, that's a problem. I see no evidence that that is happening. I know younger coaches that moved on from the sport because having kids while having to hit the recruiting trail is too much for them.
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Post by pepperbrooks on May 3, 2019 12:55:19 GMT -5
Well if the coaching pool isn't large enough, how is that the sport's fault? Maybe the overwhelming majority of female players have historically not gone into coaching? Again, if there are deserving female candidates out there being denied jobs because they're female, that's a problem. I see no evidence that that is happening. I know younger coaches that moved on from the sport because having kids while having to hit the recruiting trail is too much for them. Which is a big reason why the AVCA has pushed for changes to the recruiting calendar.
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Post by jcvball22 on May 3, 2019 14:23:45 GMT -5
Muffett did at Notre Dame what Debbie Brown couldn’t. Russ did at Penn St. what Renee Portland and Coquese Washington couldn’t. No woman volleyball coach did what Pat Summit did. Why are you blaming men for building championship programs? And the Championship programs that have recently turned over (UW/Stanford) would have women head coaches if the women assistants the schools would have hired in a heartbeat (or directly asked to take the job) took the jobs. Why is there only one woman HC in the B1G? Because there were more but they got fired for not producing, there is a large number of male coaches who have been highly successful and aren’t turning over openings, and CJL/Salima/KBB and others have ceded head coaching opportunities available to them to males making new hires go disproportionately in that direction. And the B1G is not representative of the collegiate coaching landscape as a whole - women are getting plenty of opportunities to be head coaches. Championship programs? that covers 2 of the 14. What are you arguing for the rest? When was this magical time with lots of female Head Coaches in the B1G? Oh, you just made that up? How long has it been since the B1G even hired a female head coach? Looks like over 10 years if you don't count the 2011 season where MN had an assistant act as interim for a year while waiting for Hugh. Since then it has been in the neighborhood of 10 or 11 male hires in a row. Yup, that sure is progress for a sport with 10 times more female players. And most of those male hires didn't have to cut their teeth at mid-majors to show success as HCs before getting the big chair (Aird, Hughes, Tamas, Hugh) as a few people have suggested the women need to do before getting the B1G jobs.
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Post by pepperbrooks on May 3, 2019 14:24:23 GMT -5
Well if the coaching pool isn't large enough, how is that the sport's fault? Maybe the overwhelming majority of female players have historically not gone into coaching? Again, if there are deserving female candidates out there being denied jobs because they're female, that's a problem. I see no evidence that that is happening. Have you been hiding under a rock since the 50's? It literally pains me that you could type that. This sport has been exploiting rather than empowering young women since I first became involved in the early 80's, and is incredibly disheartening to hear how completely tone deaf so many are here on VT. What do you mean exploiting? Just because someone plays volleyball doesn't automatically mean they're part of a pool of future coaches. I'm missing something here.
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Post by c4ndlelight on May 3, 2019 14:25:06 GMT -5
Muffett did at Notre Dame what Debbie Brown couldn’t. Russ did at Penn St. what Renee Portland and Coquese Washington couldn’t. No woman volleyball coach did what Pat Summit did. Why are you blaming men for building championship programs? And the Championship programs that have recently turned over (UW/Stanford) would have women head coaches if the women assistants the schools would have hired in a heartbeat (or directly asked to take the job) took the jobs. Why is there only one woman HC in the B1G? Because there were more but they got fired for not producing, there is a large number of male coaches who have been highly successful and aren’t turning over openings, and CJL/Salima/KBB and others have ceded head coaching opportunities available to them to males making new hires go disproportionately in that direction. And the B1G is not representative of the collegiate coaching landscape as a whole - women are getting plenty of opportunities to be head coaches. Championship programs? that covers 2 of the 14. What are you arguing for the rest? When was this magical time with lots of female Head Coaches in the B1G? Oh, you just made that up? How long has it been since the B1G even hired a female head coach? Looks like over 10 years if you don't count the 2011 season where MN had an assistant act as interim for a year while waiting for Hugh. Since then it has been in the neighborhood of 10 or 11 male hires in a row. Yup, that sure is progress for a sport with 10 times more female players. You are basing your argument about the # of WBB championships for women's coaches versus VB championships, so it's directly relevant. Once again, women have had opportunities for B1G head coaching jobs in that timespan and TURNED THEM DOWN, and women are getting hired for head coaching positions at major programs that are better than many of the jobs that have been opening up in the B1G. And you still have not shown that the coaching pool for college volleyball is different than the coaching pool for college basketball or any other sport. The difference is that the job pool is overwhelmingly slanted toward the women's side. Coaches like Hugh and Tamas and Davis and Aird and Hughes are staying on the men's side in other sports.
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Post by pepperbrooks on May 3, 2019 14:46:48 GMT -5
You are basing your argument about the # of WBB championships for women's coaches versus VB championships, so it's directly relevant. Once again, women have had opportunities for B1G head coaching jobs in that timespan and TURNED THEM DOWN, and that the women are getting hired for head coaching positions at major programs that are better than many of the jobs that have been opening up in the B1G. And you still have not shown that the coaching pool for college volleyball is different than the coaching pool for college basketball or any other sport. The difference is that the job pool is overwhelmingly slanted toward the women's side. Coaches like Hugh and Tamas and Davis and Aird and Hughes are staying on the men's side in other sports. How slowly can I say this. There are 10 times the number of female college trained volleyball players that grew up loving and playing the game at a high level than there are male. That means the pool of women with high level training starts out 10 times larger than the pool of men. The B1G has over 10 times more male coaches than female coaches. At a basic and very fundamental level, a college trained male volleyball player is 100 times more likely to be a B1G coach than is a female college trained volleyball player. That is completely f'd up.Please explain why that is acceptable for any women's sport? Please explain how that doesn't equate to a complete failure in the leadership of the sport, going back decades? Please explain what is inherently different in basketball that women are hired to coach and they thrive, but women are not hired in large numbers to coach volleyball on they don't thrive? There are way more men's basketball than men's volleyball programs, leading coaches to go where the money and opportunity is: women's volleyball. If men's' bball had the same numbers as men's vball, you'd see the same thing happen in women's bball. And you keep talking about that pool of women as if they're ALL going into coaching, and are ALL able to coach college volleyball. I also don't think it's the sports' job to make sure their athletes become coaches.
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Post by c4ndlelight on May 3, 2019 14:57:08 GMT -5
If you're basing this on participation, how many women's teams were at USA Adult Nationals versus men's?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 16:35:18 GMT -5
A couple points. There are thousands of men playing college volleyball, just not DI. They love the sport. Men’s college club volleyball is going crazy. The opportunity for men to earn quality coaching jobs is on the women’s side. Don’t blame male coaches for that. I guarantee you that men would celebrate to have 344 coaching opportunities on the men’s side. There might be ten men’s coaching jobs in America that pay north of $80K. There may be 150 on the women’s side. While working as a volunteer coach at a power 5 school a few years ago, I was in charge of organizing applicants for the first assistant position. There were exactly 99 applicants. 90 men, 9 women. Most AD’s keep their jobs by making good hires. Most AD’s are trained to look at women first. Please list the women who have applied for these “top” jobs who are being denied. Thanks.
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Post by ineedajob on May 3, 2019 16:37:46 GMT -5
I saw that picture of all the guys and initially thought "Oh, this is a bad look." However, I still don't think this is as much a "volleyball" problem where ADs are only hiring men because they're sexist pigs as it is more a problem that there aren't enough premium coaching jobs in men's volleyball. Other societal problems also come into play, such as the stigma that (assuming a traditional marriage) men should be the primary earner in the household and the fact that (in the real world) men are paid more for doing the same jobs.
For a married couple where the woman is a volleyball coach, it is likely that she doesn't make as much as her husband's "real job." It is also true that it wouldn't make sense for their family for her to pursue a more premium position if that means that he would have to find a new job elsewhere. If it is a married couple where the man is a volleyball coach, it is relatively more likely that his wife is underpaid in her "real job" and their salaries might be more comparable. Now, it would make sense for that male coach to try to find a more premium job. In traditionally married couples, it is more likely that a couple is willing to relocate for the husband's job than the wife's (I have no statistics for that, but I think it's true). This could prevent a married female coach from relocating to pursue a more premium position.
Along with that, There are many reasons why coaching Women's volleyball is more appealing than coaching in Men's volleyball. There are far fewer men's jobs across the country. The majority of the men's jobs not paid as well as women's jobs. If I am married and my partner has a "real job" that pays more than mine, I am less likely to uproot my family for a job that does not pay as well as my partner's. A comparable job in women's volleyball pays more money, making it more likely that I could out-earn my partner, and more desirable for me to want to uproot my family. Additionally, even if I am unwilling to uproot my family for a coaching job, it is more likely that I live closer to an institution that has a women's volleyball program, making that job more desirable to me.
Just a couple other factors that are being ignored in my opinion. There are so many places across the country where men play volleyball, but it isn't a "sanctioned" sport for whatever reason. Another thing to account for is the disparity in scholarship money and availability between men's and women's college volleyball. Playing volleyball is not a way for most boys to pay for college, but it is for girls. Yes, that can result in a girl player receiving better training throughout college, whereas it might result in a boy playing college club or even starting to coach and look at the game like a coach from the time they're 17/18 years old. I think your numbers are discounting the NCVF (college club volleyball). While there are also women's teams and players, the top men's players much more closely resemble their DI counterparts than do the top women's players.
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Post by nevollfan on May 3, 2019 17:07:16 GMT -5
But 12 national championships. When John Cook retires, I hope he gets the final say in his replacement. Right now, I’m guessing, he coaches through the 2024 season. Picks his successor, which surveying the top candidates, would be a male. I don’t care one way or another, but pick the best person who can keep Nebraska amongst the very elite. Currently, not to many young females are in the very elite class. I would want demonstrated head coaching acumen on the major college level. You missed the point. Nebraska and Penn State winning national championships doesn't make the remainder of the B1G coaches championship level which your prior post seems to imply. Not really. I guess my reply only centers around national championships. But my thoughts were programs making a regional final or the final four show coaching prowess. From my memory bank, from recent years, Illinois, Minnesota and Wisconsin show their programs reaching a high level of play. Of course national championships are the ultimate prize. But being one of the top 8 or 4 best teams is a significant achievement. Clarity, from me, could have been better used here.
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Post by pepperbrooks on May 3, 2019 17:15:06 GMT -5
There are way more men's basketball than men's volleyball programs, leading coaches to go where the money and opportunity is: women's volleyball. If men's' bball had the same numbers as men's vball, you'd see the same thing happen in women's bball. And you keep talking about that pool of women as if they're ALL going into coaching, and are ALL able to coach college volleyball. I also don't think it's the sports' job to make sure their athletes become coaches. I am somehow not making this clear, when it should be painfully obvious. The potential pool of coaches for a sport comes almost exclusively from the pool of high-level highly trained former players. There is then some percentage from that pool that has the desire and is encouraged to coach. The pool for women's basketball, men's basketball and women's volleyball are all quite large, so you would expect them to generate a large number of coaches to fill their needs. The pool for men's volleyball is very small (1/10th) so you would expect it to generate a much smaller number of coaches to fill it's need. If it generated more than it's need, the numbers are so small they should not negatively impact the women's game. How is it, then, that male coaches have so completely overwhelmed female coaches in volleyball, to the point that not a single female coach has won a championship? I could not disagree with you more, in that it is absolutely the sports job (through the USAV, NCAA, etc) to promote the sport and to encourage it's top athletes to coach and lead the next generation. When the top athletes are not encouraged to stay in the sport and assume positions of leadership, then something is truly and horribly gone off the rails. The women's game is now, and always has been, an auxiliary to the men's game, even though it should have 10 times the influence by virtue of numbers. This is a very clear sign of a fundamental problem. Ok I see your point about the pool of people men v women. Perhaps that discrepancy goes back to not wanting that kind of lifestyle while having children and raising them, where as men traditionally are more likely to go all in. Those roles have changed a lot more in the past 30 years, of course.’ But I still disagree with how you’re wording your point about the sport’s responsibility. Yes they should “encourage” players to be coaches, not expect it. And it doesn’t have to be top players.
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