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Post by moderndaycoach on May 9, 2019 11:06:51 GMT -5
I understand the argument of protecting your interests but this is a niche niche sport. Outside of a handful, most of the players will not make $10-$15K per year playing the sport. There playing a sport they love, looking to play at high levels and are getting caught in some tug-of-war from people (sun and KW) that are looking to control the sport. Why punish the athletes? If this was a sport where the athletes made a living wage, then I totally understand the argument, but this is far from it. A kid working at McDonalds making minimum wage will make more in a year than the majority of players that play in the MD this year. From what I understand, Sun's contract was not received well by the majority in the first place, but what power did they have. They just want to play ball but again, are caught up in some ridiculous power struggle over a niche sport. I can totally see it from a player's perspective. 1) There are all of ~7 tournaments for the year. WOW! 2) Unless you are consistently placing in the Top 3-4, you are not making $$. Even if you are finishing in the Top 3, you are not making much $$ either to be honest. Guessing a manager at most mid-size businesses make more than most VB players 3) They, like most of us, just like playing VB. To be told you have to get permission to go play VB when the person telling you this is only offering 7 tournaments and is not offering life changing $$, I would be PO'd also. 4) If I was a mid/lower MD team, I would really be upset. To be told you cannot play tournaments without permission but the top teams have the double standard of being released for all FIVB tournaments is crappy for lower MD teams just looking to play and making pick-up some travel $$. 5) Sun is not protecting any interest by banning someone like Billy K. from playing....it is just petty and being a bully. No disrespect to Bill K., but he is not moving the needle on the AVP or any other tour nor are 75%+ of the MD players. AVP/P1440/NVL world was not changing if they had exclusive rights to Slick or Allen, Rafu.... 6) If Sun is protecting his interests, then he would not let his top names go play FIVB either...but he won't cause he doesn't have the power to do that as he would lose the PR battle over not allowing players to follow their Olympic dream. So, it is enforced against lower tier people...nice!! Interest protected??? Personally, VB is such a niche sport, having multiple brands might actually grow the sport better. How are VB fans in places like Florida benefiting from seeing higher level VB?? Right. Since VB is such a niche sport, if AVP runs their tournaments and P1440 or whoever runs their tournaments, I think both would be smart enough to not place them against each other or at least have them far apart (Cally/Florida). More tournaments, more fams/kids/young players get to get out and hopefully catch the VB bug and the more groundswell grows for VB. If Sun really wants to protect his interests and wants to enforce a "no compete" clause (again ridiculous for such a niche sport that virtually no one makes money off of), then he should sign contracts with the few players that actually draw people (Phil, Taylor, Jake, April, Casey...there will not be many). Pay them to be exclusive...you know like a contract which I am guessing a few might have anyhow. Then let all the others do what they love to do for little to no money to begin with. Let Billy/Miles go play whatever, if Satterfield wants to play some P1440 event in the fall, great, let him go as a Satterfield/Honer/Paulis...is not going to impact either brand one way or another. Again, this is really odd power struggle for....what again?? The ability to run 7ish tournaments a year where most players make little to no money, then pulling some ego/power trip and telling players they have to be loyal to only the AVP or else you will take your ball and go home. Come on. This really shouldn't be an AVP vs P1440 things for fans/players where we hope the AVP wins. This should about the players and now writers like Travis that are put in positions of choosing sides when all they want to do is play VB, be around VB. Again, IF you are given a contract and paid living wages that is one thing, VB is far far from that. The argument that Billy made his choice and now has to live with it blows my mind all because he wanted to play VB and didn't want to be limited by an organization that I guarantee you is not giving him any sponsor/contract $. Yet top players can skip AVP as they please in order to play FIVB. As someone that likes VB, I would prefer to support players, not organizations that are battling to control the sport. Don't want players playing in other organized tournaments, fine 1) pay the ones you do not want playing elsewhere and let everyone else go out and play the sport they love. Yea, but who's tour is operating and growing while the other struggles and sends out email blasts on the regular. Billy made his choice, and he clearly wasn't the only lower level player upset with the contract, however he could have gone about expressing his disdain for the contract in a completely different manner once and then kept his mouth shut. Instead he went on Facebook and continued to be a spokesperson against the AVP and how they were operating.
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Post by 405LAX on May 9, 2019 11:24:18 GMT -5
I understand the argument of protecting your interests but this is a niche niche sport. Outside of a handful, most of the players will not make $10-$15K per year playing the sport. There playing a sport they love, looking to play at high levels and are getting caught in some tug-of-war from people (sun and KW) that are looking to control the sport. Why punish the athletes? If this was a sport where the athletes made a living wage, then I totally understand the argument, but this is far from it. A kid working at McDonalds making minimum wage will make more in a year than the majority of players that play in the MD this year. From what I understand, Sun's contract was not received well by the majority in the first place, but what power did they have. They just want to play ball but again, are caught up in some ridiculous power struggle over a niche sport. I can totally see it from a player's perspective. 1) There are all of ~7 tournaments for the year. WOW! 2) Unless you are consistently placing in the Top 3-4, you are not making $$. Even if you are finishing in the Top 3, you are not making much $$ either to be honest. Guessing a manager at most mid-size businesses make more than most VB players 3) They, like most of us, just like playing VB. To be told you have to get permission to go play VB when the person telling you this is only offering 7 tournaments and is not offering life changing $$, I would be PO'd also. 4) If I was a mid/lower MD team, I would really be upset. To be told you cannot play tournaments without permission but the top teams have the double standard of being released for all FIVB tournaments is crappy for lower MD teams just looking to play and making pick-up some travel $$. 5) Sun is not protecting any interest by banning someone like Billy K. from playing....it is just petty and being a bully. No disrespect to Bill K., but he is not moving the needle on the AVP or any other tour nor are 75%+ of the MD players. AVP/P1440/NVL world was not changing if they had exclusive rights to Slick or Allen, Rafu.... 6) If Sun is protecting his interests, then he would not let his top names go play FIVB either...but he won't cause he doesn't have the power to do that as he would lose the PR battle over not allowing players to follow their Olympic dream. So, it is enforced against lower tier people...nice!! Interest protected??? Personally, VB is such a niche sport, having multiple brands might actually grow the sport better. How are VB fans in places like Florida benefiting from seeing higher level VB?? Right. Since VB is such a niche sport, if AVP runs their tournaments and P1440 or whoever runs their tournaments, I think both would be smart enough to not place them against each other or at least have them far apart (Cally/Florida). More tournaments, more fams/kids/young players get to get out and hopefully catch the VB bug and the more groundswell grows for VB. If Sun really wants to protect his interests and wants to enforce a "no compete" clause (again ridiculous for such a niche sport that virtually no one makes money off of), then he should sign contracts with the few players that actually draw people (Phil, Taylor, Jake, April, Casey...there will not be many). Pay them to be exclusive...you know like a contract which I am guessing a few might have anyhow. Then let all the others do what they love to do for little to no money to begin with. Let Billy/Miles go play whatever, if Satterfield wants to play some P1440 event in the fall, great, let him go as a Satterfield/Honer/Paulis...is not going to impact either brand one way or another. Again, this is really odd power struggle for....what again?? The ability to run 7ish tournaments a year where most players make little to no money, then pulling some ego/power trip and telling players they have to be loyal to only the AVP or else you will take your ball and go home. Come on. This really shouldn't be an AVP vs P1440 things for fans/players where we hope the AVP wins. This should about the players and now writers like Travis that are put in positions of choosing sides when all they want to do is play VB, be around VB. Again, IF you are given a contract and paid living wages that is one thing, VB is far far from that. The argument that Billy made his choice and now has to live with it blows my mind all because he wanted to play VB and didn't want to be limited by an organization that I guarantee you is not giving him any sponsor/contract $. Yet top players can skip AVP as they please in order to play FIVB. As someone that likes VB, I would prefer to support players, not organizations that are battling to control the sport. Don't want players playing in other organized tournaments, fine 1) pay the ones you do not want playing elsewhere and let everyone else go out and play the sport they love. Yea, but who's tour is operating and growing while the other struggles and sends out email blasts on the regular. Billy made his choice, and he clearly wasn't the only lower level player upset with the contract, however he could have gone about expressing his disdain for the contract in a completely different manner once and then kept his mouth shut. Instead he went on Facebook and continued to be a spokesperson against the AVP and how they were operating. Continues to be lost here, Billy was a vocal opposition leader, that is fact.
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Post by moderndaycoach on May 9, 2019 11:52:16 GMT -5
So just asking questions here, if Travis was concerned about getting paid for his work as he should because it warrants it, why would he not discuss with Sun and KWJ repeatedly and see what his best deal was?
Not only that but get a meeting with the PAC 12 network as you are in their country now and start covering beach/indoor volleyball for them or even try to commentate for a stipend slightly higher than whatever college of broadcasting/journalism intern they have doing the not as popular matches. Shoot start writing for Track and Field, Golf, or whatever else isn't getting the attention it should that a niche market may take interest in like we all did when he started writing about the AVP when volleyball is in an off season.
I understand why Travis may have been doing what he did, but like I said before I would just like to hear an explanation - I feel like there had to be other options and this was potentially rushed for financial stability.
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Post by 405LAX on May 9, 2019 11:55:43 GMT -5
So just asking questions here, if Travis was concerned about getting paid for his work as he should because it warrants it, why would he not discuss with Sun and KWJ repeatedly and see what his best deal was? Not only that but get a meeting with the PAC 12 network as you are in their country now and start covering beach/indoor volleyball for them or even try to commentate for a stipend slightly higher than whatever college of broadcasting/journalism intern they have doing the not as popular matches. Shoot start writing for Track and Field, Golf, or whatever else isn't getting the attention it should that a niche market may take interest in like we all did when he started writing about the AVP when volleyball is in an off season. I understand why Travis may have been doing what he did, but like I said before I would just like to hear an explanation - I feel like there had to be other options and this was potentially rushed for financial stability. I don't think we'll get the full picture from Travis, AVP probably wasn't that interested as their site seems to be just fine being pretty bare bones. P90 probably kicks him minimal funds for articles, pays him in "coaching" whatever that is.
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Post by keeweekid on May 9, 2019 12:02:26 GMT -5
Again, so what if he was vocally opposed to signing the contract? I guessing that this was a common feeling amongst players, he was the only one that said something about via social media. I don't think someone should be punished not agreeing with a crappy contract that was forced on them...and I am guessing that neither would any of us in our hobbies. EX: You like hiking, well Yosemite is awesome but if you go there, you are not allowed to ever go to Yellowstone. That makes no sense and neither does Sun's contract. IF VB is a bigger $$ product and players are getting paid a sizeable amount, I totally agree with you that they should be loyal to a tour that financially supports them/sponsors them but that is far from what the situation is.
My point is that billy/Travis and others should not be punished for not signing a contract....what I don't understand from others is, why are we supporting a contract that limited player options in a niche sport with little to no money that was forced on the players to begin with???
If Sun wants no compete contracts, then pay the people that sign the contract vs the only thing that is offered is "you get to play my tournaments" if you sign.
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Post by tamz on May 9, 2019 12:22:52 GMT -5
Hold up. Travis is banned from AVP now??
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Post by LongSpatch on May 9, 2019 12:27:23 GMT -5
Hold up. Travis is banned from AVP now?? No. The AVP denied his media request or something like that. He can still play
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Post by 405LAX on May 9, 2019 12:30:59 GMT -5
Hold up. Travis is banned from AVP now?? No. The AVP denied his media request or something like that. He can still play I don't agree with Billy getting banned but I do agree Sun should not allow Travis to write about AVP things on P90's website. If you don't agree with this, you work for P90.
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Post by moderndaycoach on May 9, 2019 12:42:02 GMT -5
No. The AVP denied his media request or something like that. He can still play I don't agree with Billy getting banned but I do agree Sun should not allow Travis to write about AVP things on P90's website. If you don't agree with this, you work for P90. Right, I am on the same page here - Billy or anyone else for that matter being banned is bad for the sport but that does not mean we can not discuss why a potential ban transpired. They didn't just say they did not like the contract they were vocal and malicious about it. Instead you could have done with Casey P did and organize a group to go meet with the AVP, plaster it all over social media that you were working together to find resolution and hopefully find some middle ground.
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Post by 405LAX on May 9, 2019 12:45:52 GMT -5
I don't agree with Billy getting banned but I do agree Sun should not allow Travis to write about AVP things on P90's website. If you don't agree with this, you work for P90. Right, I am on the same page here - Billy or anyone else for that matter being banned is bad for the sport but that does not mean we can not discuss why a potential ban transpired. They didn't just say they did not like the contract they were vocal and malicious about it. Instead you could have done with Casey P did and organize a group to go meet with the AVP, plaster it all over social media that you were working together to find resolution and hopefully find some middle ground. Again we are in complete agreement, Billy can't pretend he was just "one of many" who didn't like it. We all recognized him as the leader of the player revolution. Page too but he fell off the planet.
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Post by beachking on May 9, 2019 13:55:40 GMT -5
I feel like this has been gone over a million times but...Bottom line is it's Sun's tour, his money. People can get on board or not. There is a risk to the players/people who dont want to get in line, and they are now feeling that. If somebody else like P90 wants to come on board and try to take over so be it, it just hasn't worked yet. AVP has been the only game in town, really, since the 80's and by the looks of last weekend in HB there is no real threat. That tour is bigger than any player as witnessed by Mr. & Mrs. Walsh. As things continue to gain steam(slowly) I think more stops will be added. The addition of flight and hotel payments for players was a huge addition that I think is under appreciated. That is worth more than the prize money for most of these guys.
Side note, I still dont think the Olympics is the end all for beach volley. If I was Sun I would consider taking on the FIVB. They hold those Olympics births over every ones head. Thats all they have. The AVP tournaments are run 10 times better than most FIVB events. Double elimination format over 3 days is way better for spectators. The freeze rule has turned out to be genius. Just a better product in my opinion.
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Post by butteryhands on May 9, 2019 13:58:17 GMT -5
I guess Bill is stopping at the AVP Offices today. He will likely have final word one way or the other before the day is over.
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Post by moderndaycoach on May 9, 2019 14:09:14 GMT -5
I guess Bill is stopping at the AVP Offices today. He will likely have final word one way or the other before the day is over. Chances he makes him apologize on social media just to stoke his ego then makes him sign contract on the spot and post something about how they have come to an agreement?
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Post by 405LAX on May 9, 2019 14:14:20 GMT -5
I guess Bill is stopping at the AVP Offices today. He will likely have final word one way or the other before the day is over. Chances he makes him apologize on social media just to stoke his ego then makes him sign contract on the spot and post something about how they have come to an agreement? That sounds fair but banning him for one tournament wouldn't be unfair either.
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Post by JB Southpaw on May 9, 2019 14:26:28 GMT -5
It's good they are conversing.
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