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Post by ajm on May 9, 2019 15:01:46 GMT -5
I feel like this has been gone over a million times but...Bottom line is it's Sun's tour, his money. People can get on board or not. There is a risk to the players/people who dont want to get in line, and they are now feeling that. If somebody else like P90 wants to come on board and try to take over so be it, it just hasn't worked yet. AVP has been the only game in town, really, since the 80's and by the looks of last weekend in HB there is no real threat. That tour is bigger than any player as witnessed by Mr. & Mrs. Walsh. As things continue to gain steam(slowly) I think more stops will be added. The addition of flight and hotel payments for players was a huge addition that I think is under appreciated. That is worth more than the prize money for most of these guys. Side note, I still dont think the Olympics is the end all for beach volley. If I was Sun I would consider taking on the FIVB. They hold those Olympics births over every ones head. Thats all they have. The AVP tournaments are run 10 times better than most FIVB events. Double elimination format over 3 days is way better for spectators. The freeze rule has turned out to be genius. Just a better product in my opinion. I agree about the FIVB and the Olympics. The way for the AVP to compete with that is to allow all international players in and create its own world championship series that is better for the players and fans. Wimbledon is bigger than the Olympics. The Stanley Cup is bigger than the Olympics. Manhattan Beach used to be the biggest volley event, but for whatever reason it has been surpassed.
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Post by guest2 on May 9, 2019 15:23:47 GMT -5
I understand the argument of protecting your interests but this is a niche niche sport. d is not offering life changing $$, I would be PO'd also. Yea, but who's tour is operating and growing while the other struggles and sends out email blasts on the regular. Billy made his choice, and he clearly wasn't the only lower level player upset with the contract, however he could have gone about expressing his disdain for the contract in a completely different manner once and then kept his mouth shut. Instead he went on Facebook and continued to be a spokesperson against the AVP and how they were operating. Not sure anyone's tour is "growing" in 2013, the AVP had 7 stops, six years later, there are........8. In 2014, leading money winner got 42k in 7 events In 2017 - 36k in 6 events In 2018 - 49k in 7 I guess if you were desperate you could call that growth and there is the AP deal, but prize money is barely keeping up with inflation and the AVP hasn't added an event in a while.
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Post by moderndaycoach on May 9, 2019 15:31:29 GMT -5
Yea, but who's tour is operating and growing while the other struggles and sends out email blasts on the regular. Billy made his choice, and he clearly wasn't the only lower level player upset with the contract, however he could have gone about expressing his disdain for the contract in a completely different manner once and then kept his mouth shut. Instead he went on Facebook and continued to be a spokesperson against the AVP and how they were operating. Not sure anyone's tour is "growing" in 2013, the AVP had 7 stops, six years later, there are........8. In 2014, leading money winner got 42k in 7 events In 2017 - 36k in 6 events In 2018 - 49k in 7 I guess if you were desperate you could call that growth and there is the AP deal, but prize money is barely keeping up with inflation and the AVP hasn't added an event in a while. I don't know if it is desperate, we all know and have acknowledged it is a niche professional sport at the moment but wouldn't you call the grassroots program, Amazon deal, Gold Series, paying for MD flights/lodging, and the end of year invitational in Hawaii a sign of growth? I certainly is more than the EVP, NVL, and 1440 can say at the moment.
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Post by guest2 on May 9, 2019 15:41:18 GMT -5
Not sure anyone's tour is "growing" in 2013, the AVP had 7 stops, six years later, there are........8. In 2014, leading money winner got 42k in 7 events In 2017 - 36k in 6 events In 2018 - 49k in 7 I guess if you were desperate you could call that growth and there is the AP deal, but prize money is barely keeping up with inflation and the AVP hasn't added an event in a while. I don't know if it is desperate, we all know and have acknowledged it is a niche professional sport at the moment but wouldn't you call the grassroots program, Amazon deal, Gold Series, paying for MD flights/lodging, and the end of year invitational in Hawaii a sign of growth? I certainly is more than the EVP, NVL, and 1440 can say at the moment. AVP is King of the Hill for sure, but I dont know about growth. At best very slow, mostly peripheral growth. I love all that stuff, but I wish Sun had taken all the money he spent on it and added a couple events. His way will probably pay more long term dividends though.
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Post by downtheline on May 9, 2019 15:58:24 GMT -5
Originally there were only 2 AVP players upset with the contract ...
What for it ... KWJ & CWJ...!
Then they held a meeting at their home pitching a union, a quorum , a revolt ..
Just like in JonesTown there was koolaide passed around for the soon to be followers of the gilded path toward Pxxxx.
Some bit others passed. This is the aftermath for their career choices.
As for expansion of AVP, from a product marketing investment by sports minded corps the koolaide put many on the sidelines, hurting everyone, especially the athletes.
The AVP is now firmly backed by Kingston Technology with help in all aspects of management and growth and funding..
They will continue to grow & thrive & learn, without help from the great 1 or the MMofBVB.
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Post by PaulBVB on May 9, 2019 20:05:05 GMT -5
Originally there were only 2 AVP players upset with the contract ... What for it ... KWJ & CWJ...! Then they held a meeting at their home pitching a union, a quorum , a revolt .. Just like in JonesTown there was koolaide passed around for the soon to be followers of the gilded path toward Pxxxx. Some bit others passed. This is the aftermath for their career choices. As for expansion of AVP, from a product marketing investment by sports minded corps the koolaide put many on the sidelines, hurting everyone, especially the athletes. The AVP is now firmly backed by Kingston Technology with help in all aspects of management and growth and funding.. They will continue to grow & thrive & learn, without help from the great 1 or the MMofBVB. There has NEVER only been 2 AVP players upset with the contract. *Wait for it... NO other players had the guts to say anything. Oh wait Nick Lucena's wife Brooke Niles did and she got banned. Donald has one card... do anything he doesn't agree with and he'll say to you, I WILL BAN YOU and usually everyone folds because they love the sport not because they agree with Donald. More stories of players being threatened with the "I WILL BAN YOU" card will come out... Including his current staff. I can't tell you how many times I've heard AVP staff say "He's irrational and has no sense of whats right or wrong" I applaud his closest employees for trying to talk some sense into him about all of this. Lastly, how long do you think Daddy pays for his pet project?
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Post by haze on May 9, 2019 20:07:43 GMT -5
Originally there were only 2 AVP players upset with the contract ... What for it ... KWJ & CWJ...! Then they held a meeting at their home pitching a union, a quorum , a revolt .. Just like in JonesTown there was koolaide passed around for the soon to be followers of the gilded path toward Pxxxx. Some bit others passed. This is the aftermath for their career choices. As for expansion of AVP, from a product marketing investment by sports minded corps the koolaide put many on the sidelines, hurting everyone, especially the athletes. The AVP is now firmly backed by Kingston Technology with help in all aspects of management and growth and funding.. They will continue to grow & thrive & learn, without help from the great 1 or the MMofBVB. There has NEVER only been 2 AVP players upset with the contract. *Wait for it... NO other players had the guts to say anything. Oh wait Nick Lucena's wife Brooke Niles did and she got banned. Donald has one card... do anything he doesn't agree with and he'll say to you, I WILL BAN YOU and usually everyone folds because they love the sport not because they agree with Donald. More stories of players being threatened with the "I WILL BAN YOU" card will come out... Including his current staff. I can't tell you how many times I've heard AVP staff say "He's irrational and has no sense of whats right or wrong" I applaud his closest employees for trying to talk some sense into him about all of this. Lastly, how long do you think Daddy pays for his pet project? Hopefully forever, because the minute he stops, there will be no more AVP in the US, or any legitimate (halfway?) tour. That will in a sense be the end of higher level quality of Beach Volleyball in the US.
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Post by PaulBVB on May 9, 2019 20:22:50 GMT -5
There has NEVER only been 2 AVP players upset with the contract. *Wait for it... NO other players had the guts to say anything. Oh wait Nick Lucena's wife Brooke Niles did and she got banned. Donald has one card... do anything he doesn't agree with and he'll say to you, I WILL BAN YOU and usually everyone folds because they love the sport not because they agree with Donald. More stories of players being threatened with the "I WILL BAN YOU" card will come out... Including his current staff. I can't tell you how many times I've heard AVP staff say "He's irrational and has no sense of whats right or wrong" I applaud his closest employees for trying to talk some sense into him about all of this. Lastly, how long do you think Daddy pays for his pet project? Hopefully forever, because the minute he stops, there will be no more AVP in the US, or any legitimate (halfway?) tour. That will in a sense be the end of higher level quality of Beach Volleyball in the US. Agreed, hopefully forever but you know that's not the case. This nonsense by Donald is the problem. Nobody cares but Donald.
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Post by greenpier on May 9, 2019 21:53:22 GMT -5
Again, this is really odd power struggle for....what again?? The ability to run 7ish tournaments a year where most players make little to no money, then pulling some ego/power trip and telling players they have to be loyal to only the AVP or else you will take your ball and go home. Come on. This what it is all about.
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Post by c4ndlelight on May 9, 2019 22:56:10 GMT -5
People keep on forgetting that the AVP didn't require anything in terms of a contract until the NVL starting bookingg over AVP weekends and directly diluting his tournaments. If there are only 7-8 AVP Tournaments a year, how in the hell did the NVL justify not finding some... any... other weekend? And since the NVL was already targeting the mid- and lower-tier AVP players, it makes no sense that they didn't just double up with FIVB weekends instead.
NVL took the first shot, got their a$$es kicked, and then Kerri & Friends took it up from there.
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Post by hustleslowly on May 9, 2019 23:02:34 GMT -5
To run a tour, you need sponsors. To get sponsors, you need as many top players and fans as you can get. You make players sign a contract to guarantee to your sponsors you can get the top players. Competing tours take away players and sponsorship money.
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Post by guest2 on May 9, 2019 23:19:05 GMT -5
This is not a new topic, but its incredible the degree to which people will simply throw out facts in order to make their own dubious arguments. The idea that Kerri and Casey were originally the only two dissatisfied with the contract is not just wrong, its been contradicted by many players who have spoken about the negotiation process. It also depends on the premise that Kerri and Casey are very persuasive - which anyone who has ever heard either speak knows to be the purest balderdash.
Its also remarkable the way people revel in the setbacks p1440 has experienced. Whatever your opinion of Kerri, last year there was more great volleyball in the US than there has been this decade. Why? Because p1440 and KOTC added a bunch of excellent events with very high quality fields. This year we are back to 8 and so many of the people posting here seem to be really happy about that.
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Post by downtheline on May 9, 2019 23:46:40 GMT -5
You mean like in LV where the courts were originally made up of construction grade sand and inferior lighting for the scheduled night play?
A - Team took one look and went home. Others refused to play after dusk.
Thank god someone cared enough to order an emergency change out of sand at the final hour.
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Post by guest2 on May 10, 2019 0:12:58 GMT -5
You mean like in LV where the courts were originally made up of construction grade sand and inferior lighting for the scheduled night play? A - Team took one look and went home. Others refused to play after dusk. Thank god someone cared enough to order an emergency change out of sand at the final hour. And how did that affect the experience as a fan? Was there still an extra event with a great field? Yes. So why revel in the failure of p1440, now there are fewer. How is that not a bad outcome for fans? Also if you are correct in what happened with April/Alix (and I hadn't heard that but have no reason to doubt you) then that is even more evidence of why most of these players don't deserve more. They couldn't even be bothered to stick around and see if the problem got resolved, which according to you it did.
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Post by beavis on May 10, 2019 0:19:38 GMT -5
This is not a new topic, but its incredible the degree to which people will simply throw out facts in order to make their own dubious arguments. The idea that Kerri and Casey were originally the only two dissatisfied with the contract is not just wrong, its been contradicted by many players who have spoken about the negotiation process. It also depends on the premise that Kerri and Casey are very persuasive - which anyone who has ever heard either speak knows to be the purest balderdash. Its also remarkable the way people revel in the setbacks p1440 has experienced. Whatever your opinion of Kerri, last year there was more great volleyball in the US than there has been this decade. Why? Because p1440 and KOTC added a bunch of excellent events with very high quality fields. This year we are back to 8 and so many of the people posting here seem to be really happy about that. Agreed - it is incredible how folks will throw out facts to make their own dubious arguments. I guess Kerri and Casey holding a meeting at their place and promising prospective players that they will have a much better option to play and make money on their tour than on the AVP, and thus encouraging them to not sign the AVP contract, is not considered "persuasive." Who in their right mind would believe what the most accomplished female beach volleyball player ever is telling them? How could listening to their hero, and the person that all of them aspire to be, possibly have persuaded any of the other players to drink the p1440 koolaid? We don't revel in the p1440 setbacks at all. We just realize what an uphill battle they faced, and are realistic about the fact that the AVP continues to be the only game in town. We also don't discount the progress that they have made in simply surviving, and maintaining and even moderately expanding, their volleyball tour for several years now. To say that p1440 and KOTC added "a bunch of excellent events" last year is likewise silly. Just because you were able to sit at your computer and watch a few matches emanating from US soil does not magically turn 3 iffy events, none of which will apparently be repeated this year, into a bunch of excellent events. Instead, what we are happy about is that, once again this year, like the past several years, we have 8 well-run, well-attended, well-sponsored tournaments which we can attend. To discount, as inconsequential, the addition of AVP Next tournaments (a few of which we will also attend this year), as well as seemingly little things like the addition of sponsors and site and equipment improvements at the actual AVP tournaments is simply shortsighted. I'll personally take the slow, controlled and steady "growth" of the AVP over the flame-out of the NVL and p1440 anytime. And it might suck that folks like Kolinske, Travis and Brooke chose to support the upstart instead of the sure thing, but guess what? That's life, and that's business!
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