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Post by keeweekid on May 10, 2019 0:24:25 GMT -5
To run a tour, you need sponsors. To get sponsors, you need as many top players and fans as you can get. You make players sign a contract to guarantee to your sponsors you can get the top players. Competing tours take away players and sponsorship money. Except that is not what is happening at all with the contract. This year, last year (contract years) and previous years when there was no contract...who missed the most tournaments, top level players or lower/mid level AVP players? Every single year including this one, the top players will miss the most tournaments because of the FIVB tournaments. 3 of the next 6 AVP tournaments are on the same weekend as a 4 Star Fivb and thus a very good chance that a few/many of the top teams will not be there (Austin, Hermosa, Manhattan). Btw, i agree with you, you need top players at your events. But Sun put out a controversial contract and seems to only have enforced it against Billy K. and 1-2 other players that are not moving the needle for fans/sponsors. If Dalhauser wants to go play 4 Star Moscow instead of Manhattan, I guarantee you Sun is not enforcing the contract. So why have it? I have wondered when FIVB schedules their events and when Mr. Sun has to schedule his. I assume both have to do it well in advance for logistics as it is not in Mr. Sun's interest to be on the same weekend as big FIVB tournaments since as he is losing his top players...and not enforcing the contract.
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Post by beavis on May 10, 2019 0:26:39 GMT -5
And yes, some of us actually were at Las Vegas in person, and were affected by the poor planning and lighting decisions, as well as the unfairness of making some teams play under those conditions while others got to reschedule. So yes, not being able to watch the teams you really want to see and support, especially after spending thousands of dollars on flights and hotels, etc. to show your support for p1440, did kinda suck, just like being turned away on Quali day and not being able to even enter the venue (after spending extra $$$ to get there a day early for said Quali), unless you agreed to stand on an outside court and chase balls as a volunteer, did kinda suck. But again, how would you know any of that unless you actually care enough to support these tours by attending a few events in person to see what really transpires!
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Post by keeweekid on May 10, 2019 0:38:14 GMT -5
People keep on forgetting that the AVP didn't require anything in terms of a contract until the NVL starting bookingg over AVP weekends and directly diluting his tournaments. If there are only 7-8 AVP Tournaments a year, how in the hell did the NVL justify not finding some... any... other weekend? And since the NVL was already targeting the mid- and lower-tier AVP players, it makes no sense that they didn't just double up with FIVB weekends instead. NVL took the first shot, got their a$$es kicked, and then Kerri & Friends took it up from there. The NVL did not dilute the AVP product. If anything, the NVL was at best a minor league to the AVP where players like De Sol, Piotr, Zaun, Palm, Samuels....played and could get better, play more matches, get some confidence, etc and then move on up to the AVP which Zaun and Samuels tried to well before the NVL collapse. The NVL was Florida based and there 5-6 tournaments were in the Midwest and Florida. AVP is 1/2ish Cally, and the big ones in NYC & Chicago. (yes austin & seattle too). There was no dilution to the AVP as there was no fringe AVP MD or mid/lower tier MD AVP teams going over to the NVL. And again, this is not much of a competition when the NVL has 5-6 tournaments and the AVP has 6-7 tournaments and neither is making any $$. If anything, I felt the NVL bettered the AVP in the broadcast sense as the NVL used to have nice high quality (well until the last year when they changed the company that videoed the tournament) video of their tournaments and commentary on the matches. Before, the AVP ran a single stream of stadium with no audio. I will assume that Tri moving to commentary during his sickness/recovery was a response to not so much the VB competition of the NVL, but seeing a nice video product being presented by another VB organization and 1) either figuring they could do that as well or 2) being shamed into doing it if nothing else. Now there was still the amazing frustration of watching the stream a few years ago when if you were watching a match that was 2-3 hours behind "real time", once the last match, in real time, was over....stream was done (still never understood that) and you were SOL with watching anymore for the day. Sun & Avp have come a long way in a few years with media presentation of their product.
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Post by downtheline on May 10, 2019 0:57:15 GMT -5
You mean like in LV where the courts were originally made up of construction grade sand and inferior lighting for the scheduled night play? A - Team took one look and went home. Others refused to play after dusk. Thank god someone cared enough to order an emergency change out of sand at the final hour. And how did that affect the experience as a fan? Was there still an extra event with a great field? Yes. So why revel in the failure of p1440, now there are fewer. How is that not a bad outcome for fans? Also if you are correct in what happened with April/Alix (and I hadn't heard that but have no reason to doubt you) then that is even more evidence of why most of these players don't deserve more. They couldn't even be bothered to stick around and see if the problem got resolved, which according to you it did. Your wonderful at trying to put your words in other people’s mouth. As a fan that went to see April, Alix and some foreign FIVB athletes we didn’t get to see them play. They were smart enough to asses the situation and not endanger themselves by practicing or playing on the wrong playing surface. That’s remote court building 101. Baring the crew working 28 straight hours to move 1500 tons of sand, twice, I’d say A-Team made a pretty logical decision. But that didn’t resolve the lighting. Not against more BVB from anyone, just stating the facts. I went to HB and enjoyed it. You cannot control the weather which hampered the Bvb and attendance, imho.
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Post by 405LAX on May 10, 2019 1:11:30 GMT -5
And how did that affect the experience as a fan? Was there still an extra event with a great field? Yes. So why revel in the failure of p1440, now there are fewer. How is that not a bad outcome for fans? Also if you are correct in what happened with April/Alix (and I hadn't heard that but have no reason to doubt you) then that is even more evidence of why most of these players don't deserve more. They couldn't even be bothered to stick around and see if the problem got resolved, which according to you it did. Your wonderful at trying to put your words in other people’s mouth. As a fan that went to see April, Alix and some foreign FIVB athletes we didn’t get to see them play. They were smart enough to asses the situation and not endanger themselves by practicing or playing on the wrong playing surface. That’s remote court building 101. Baring the crew working 28 straight hours to move 1500 tons of sand, twice, I’d say A-Team made a pretty logical decision. But that didn’t resolve the lighting. Not against more BVB from anyone, just stating the facts. I went to HB and enjoyed it. You cannot control the weather which hampered the Bvb and attendance, imho. In fairness, weather was really terrible for HB event, cold and windy, no one in Cali goes to the beach weekends like that.
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Post by guest2 on May 10, 2019 4:13:03 GMT -5
And yes, some of us actually were at Las Vegas in person, and were affected by the poor planning and lighting decisions, as well as the unfairness of making some teams play under those conditions while others got to reschedule. So yes, not being able to watch the teams you really want to see and support, especially after spending thousands of dollars on flights and hotels, etc. to show your support for p1440, did kinda suck, just like being turned away on Quali day and not being able to even enter the venue (after spending extra $$$ to get there a day early for said Quali), unless you agreed to stand on an outside court and chase balls as a volunteer, did kinda suck. But again, how would you know any of that unless you actually care enough to support these tours by attending a few events in person to see what really transpires! Excerpt from your previous posting vis a vis that event, "Totally different outlook after pool play Thursday. I have been to many tournaments through the years, and I have to hand it to the folks in charge - this place is very professionally set up, fan-friendly, and detailed." The five courts are way spread out from one another (you'd love it, 405LAX) with lots of benches and chairs provided on the outside courts. Two practice courts (practice times and teams were even assigned for the main draw teams which arrived during quali day), and the 8x8 stacked lumber surrounding each court is meticulously placed and supported (said the guy who built his own sand court in his backyard in Indianapolis). Cool stuff placed throughout the venue (like cornhole courts, kids stuff, shaded areas to relax in and still watch the matches). The usual overstaffed FIVB folks (and I mean that in a good way - court managers, uniform and ball checkers, cooler filler-upper and towel folks for the players, three ball handlers and line judges at every single match, etc.) along with readily visible scoreboards on every court. A big AVP-type board with pool play teams, results, and upcoming matches, courts and times constantly updated. Nice, clean permanent restrooms. Our only complaint....." (food) So now that its time to argue you didnt enjoy the event anymore?
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Post by guest2 on May 10, 2019 4:29:00 GMT -5
This is not a new topic, but its incredible the degree to which people will simply throw out facts in order to make their own dubious arguments. The idea that Kerri and Casey were originally the only two dissatisfied with the contract is not just wrong, its been contradicted by many players who have spoken about the negotiation process. It also depends on the premise that Kerri and Casey are very persuasive - which anyone who has ever heard either speak knows to be the purest balderdash. Its also remarkable the way people revel in the setbacks p1440 has experienced. Whatever your opinion of Kerri, last year there was more great volleyball in the US than there has been this decade. Why? Because p1440 and KOTC added a bunch of excellent events with very high quality fields. This year we are back to 8 and so many of the people posting here seem to be really happy about that. Agreed - it is incredible how folks will throw out facts to make their own dubious arguments. I guess Kerri and Casey holding a meeting at their place and promising prospective players that they will have a much better option to play and make money on their tour than on the AVP, and thus encouraging them to not sign the AVP contract, is not considered "persuasive." Who in their right mind would believe what the most accomplished female beach volleyball player ever is telling them? How could listening to their hero, and the person that all of them aspire to be, possibly have persuaded any of the other players to drink the p1440 koolaid? We don't revel in the p1440 setbacks at all. We just realize what an uphill battle they faced, and are realistic about the fact that the AVP continues to be the only game in town. We also don't discount the progress that they have made in simply surviving, and maintaining and even moderately expanding, their volleyball tour for several years now. To say that p1440 and KOTC added "a bunch of excellent events" last year is likewise silly. Just because you were able to sit at your computer and watch a few matches emanating from US soil does not magically turn 3 iffy events, none of which will apparently be repeated this year, into a bunch of excellent events. Instead, what we are happy about is that, once again this year, like the past several years, we have 8 well-run, well-attended, well-sponsored tournaments which we can attend. To discount, as inconsequential, the addition of AVP Next tournaments (a few of which we will also attend this year), as well as seemingly little things like the addition of sponsors and site and equipment improvements at the actual AVP tournaments is simply shortsighted. I'll personally take the slow, controlled and steady "growth" of the AVP over the flame-out of the NVL and p1440 anytime. And it might suck that folks like Kolinske, Travis and Brooke chose to support the upstart instead of the sure thing, but guess what? That's life, and that's business! Sitting at my computer watching is how both myself, and the overwhelming majority of volleyball fans, experience the events. If you accept the AVP's numbers at any given time there may be 100 fans watching for every one on site and, unlike many of the onsite fans, the people watching are dedicated fans. From that perspective, they were excellent events. Everyone on this board who attended, that I can recall, said they had a great time. (including you) And of all your insupportable points, the proposition that no one here is reveling in p1440's failures may be the most egregious. Why not ask your pal GG3 for an impartial perspective on that one?
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Post by hustleslowly on May 10, 2019 9:17:54 GMT -5
To run a tour, you need sponsors. To get sponsors, you need as many top players and fans as you can get. You make players sign a contract to guarantee to your sponsors you can get the top players. Competing tours take away players and sponsorship money. Except that is not what is happening at all with the contract. This year, last year (contract years) and previous years when there was no contract...who missed the most tournaments, top level players or lower/mid level AVP players? Every single year including this one, the top players will miss the most tournaments because of the FIVB tournaments. 3 of the next 6 AVP tournaments are on the same weekend as a 4 Star Fivb and thus a very good chance that a few/many of the top teams will not be there (Austin, Hermosa, Manhattan). Btw, i agree with you, you need top players at your events. But Sun put out a controversial contract and seems to only have enforced it against Billy K. and 1-2 other players that are not moving the needle for fans/sponsors. If Dalhauser wants to go play 4 Star Moscow instead of Manhattan, I guarantee you Sun is not enforcing the contract. So why have it? I have wondered when FIVB schedules their events and when Mr. Sun has to schedule his. I assume both have to do it well in advance for logistics as it is not in Mr. Sun's interest to be on the same weekend as big FIVB tournaments since as he is losing his top players...and not enforcing the contract. Olympics are a thing... He knows top players aren't signing his contract without them being able to play internationally to try and be an Olympic team. And yes teams will miss to go play 3*,etc to increase their points. That's wildly different than top teams playing on another US tour. As a fan, more tournaments on US soil is better. If I owned the AVP? Slow growth, getting more sponsors, and no competing tour to dilute my sponsors is better.
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Post by hustleslowly on May 10, 2019 9:22:07 GMT -5
Your wonderful at trying to put your words in other people’s mouth. As a fan that went to see April, Alix and some foreign FIVB athletes we didn’t get to see them play. They were smart enough to asses the situation and not endanger themselves by practicing or playing on the wrong playing surface. That’s remote court building 101. Baring the crew working 28 straight hours to move 1500 tons of sand, twice, I’d say A-Team made a pretty logical decision. But that didn’t resolve the lighting. Not against more BVB from anyone, just stating the facts. I went to HB and enjoyed it. You cannot control the weather which hampered the Bvb and attendance, imho. In fairness, weather was really terrible for HB event, cold and windy, no one in Cali goes to the beach weekends like that. And not having it at the pier didn't help. Although I didn't mind since having another event at the pier where they take the nets down is annoying.
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Post by ajm on May 10, 2019 10:42:44 GMT -5
And how did that affect the experience as a fan? Was there still an extra event with a great field? Yes. So why revel in the failure of p1440, now there are fewer. How is that not a bad outcome for fans? Also if you are correct in what happened with April/Alix (and I hadn't heard that but have no reason to doubt you) then that is even more evidence of why most of these players don't deserve more. They couldn't even be bothered to stick around and see if the problem got resolved, which according to you it did. Your wonderful at trying to put your words in other people’s mouth. As a fan that went to see April, Alix and some foreign FIVB athletes we didn’t get to see them play. They were smart enough to asses the situation and not endanger themselves by practicing or playing on the wrong playing surface. That’s remote court building 101. Baring the crew working 28 straight hours to move 1500 tons of sand, twice, I’d say A-Team made a pretty logical decision. But that didn’t resolve the lighting. Were injury rates at this event actually any higher than a typical non-beach event? I can't recall any significant injuries suffered. I don't think it's a good look when one of the top players, a multiple time Olympian, drops out of an event at the last minute without explanation. If they were concerned about the playing surface, they should have said so publicly.
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Post by 405LAX on May 10, 2019 11:36:16 GMT -5
So back to the topic, any word out of that meeting, Billy banned or not?
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Post by tamz on May 10, 2019 11:51:02 GMT -5
So back to the topic, any word out of that meeting, Billy banned or not? The Austin entry list and prelim seeding comes out later today. We’ll find out in a few hours.
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Post by goldengirlsx3 on May 10, 2019 12:17:42 GMT -5
Your wonderful at trying to put your words in other people’s mouth. As a fan that went to see April, Alix and some foreign FIVB athletes we didn’t get to see them play. They were smart enough to asses the situation and not endanger themselves by practicing or playing on the wrong playing surface. That’s remote court building 101. Baring the crew working 28 straight hours to move 1500 tons of sand, twice, I’d say A-Team made a pretty logical decision. But that didn’t resolve the lighting. Were injury rates at this event actually any higher than a typical non-beach event? I can't recall any significant injuries suffered. I don't think it's a good look when one of the top players, a multiple time Olympian, drops out of an event at the last minute without explanation. If they were concerned about the playing surface, they should have said so publicly. I was at Vegas and the sand was fine. Spoke to April there and she told me that Alix couldn’t go after warming up. She needed a break. Saw them there on Thursday & Part of Friday then they were gone. A volunteer asked Alix to sign her volunteer shirt and she didn’t. Asked the volunteer if they had something else to sign. They didn’t.:.😂😂 thought that was interesting. But whatever. 🤷🏻♀️ I want them to come to Vegas again.
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Post by goldengirlsx3 on May 10, 2019 12:18:47 GMT -5
Were injury rates at this event actually any higher than a typical non-beach event? I can't recall any significant injuries suffered. I don't think it's a good look when one of the top players, a multiple time Olympian, drops out of an event at the last minute without explanation. If they were concerned about the playing surface, they should have said so publicly. I was at Vegas and the sand was fine. Spoke to April there and she told me that Alix couldn’t go after warming up. She needed a break. Saw them there on Thursday & Part of Friday then they were gone. A volunteer asked Alix to sign her volunteer shirt and she didn’t. Asked the volunteer if they had something else to sign. They didn’t.:.😂😂 thought that was interesting. But whatever. 🤷🏻♀️ I want them to come to Vegas again.
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Post by tamz on May 10, 2019 12:20:07 GMT -5
Were injury rates at this event actually any higher than a typical non-beach event? I can't recall any significant injuries suffered. I don't think it's a good look when one of the top players, a multiple time Olympian, drops out of an event at the last minute without explanation. If they were concerned about the playing surface, they should have said so publicly. I was at Vegas and the sand was fine. Spoke to April there and she told me that Alix couldn’t go after warming up. She needed a break. Saw them there on Thursday & Part of Friday then they were gone. A volunteer asked Alix to sign her volunteer shirt and she didn’t. Asked the volunteer if they had something else to sign. They didn’t.:.😂😂 thought that was interesting. But whatever. 🤷🏻♀️ I want them to come to Vegas again. Really? April and Alix were super nice when I met them at AVP NYC last summer. I took a picture with the entire ATeam (Alix, April, and Jen Kessy).
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