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Post by bealzabubba on Nov 13, 2019 17:29:10 GMT -5
We're about a month out from HC, and Qualifiers just ended, so of course I looked at the registrations for Holiday Classic. You can see them here, if you're inclined. Since this is the first year with 14 USA and 15 USA, I found this interesting: Updated 11-22-19: Open USA Total # % # % # 14s 20 40.0% 30 60.0% 50 15s 10 37.0% 17 63.0% 27 16s 22 38.6% 35 61.4% 57 17s 18 36.7% 31 63.3% 49 18s 25 41.0% 36 59.0% 61 Overall it's a 39% Open to 61% USA split. Also kind of interesting, because unexpected to me: while SCVA dominates, we do have some other regions attending the HC: Region AZ 24 teams FL 3 teams (Ocean Bay & Orlando Gold) NC 8 teams PS 1 (Space Needle 16s, in USA) RM 3 (One club, RMR, in 14s, 17s and 18s) Grow the game: There is one 12s team registered, in 14 Open: MB Surf. (There's a separate 12s division at JBI, with an additional 10 teams reg'd as of today). There are six 13s, all in USA except for one: MB Surf ASICS 13's (open), 13 Rockstar , 949 B13 Black , Balboa Bay 13Blue , COAST 13-Leor , SG Elite 13 Elite Boys Note that this is by team code, and at least one of those clubs is known for "playing by grade," so it may have some older boys on it. Original Post:
| Open | USA | "MAX Teams" | 14s | 17
| 23 | 32 | 15s | 8 | 13 | 24 | 16s | 18 | 25 | 32 | 17s | 17 | 21 | 32 | 18s | 19 | 23 | 40 |
Yes, more teams will add, but this gives us a pretty good idea how the clubs are self selecting levels at this point. Roughly 2/3s of the 14s teams are registered (there are 64 in SCVA), and and 64/80 total 16u division has, with a much higher percentage of the 15s already in place (25 competed in Qualifiers, and 21 are registered). I think, for both 14s and 15s in Open, that Round 1 will no longer be a gimme for the highly competitive teams, but a super tough tourney (particularly 15s if those numbers don't change much - a 2 day tourney between 8 good teams is going to be brutal). We all agree that 25-7 games do no one any good, right? So now we get to see exactly how this plays out. For 16 Open, and without having seen our NorCal brethren this year: MVVC Red over MB Surf for the win. (ETA for Clarity: HC is a two day tourney - last year, the boys played Round 1 and 2/3's of Round 2 on Saturday, and finally fixed the year in the title, which I just wasn't seeing - thanks bbk ) ETA 11-22-19 Added updated chart, region distribution. ETA 11-23-19 Removed the two dropped teams, added 12's, 13s info
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Post by McAdoooo on Nov 13, 2019 18:31:54 GMT -5
We're about a month out from HC, and Qualifiers just ended, so of course I looked at the registrations for Holiday Classic. You can see them here, if you're inclined. Since this is the first year with 14 USA and 15 USA, I found this interesting:
| Open | USA | "MAX Teams" | 14s | 17
| 23 | 32 | 15s | 8 | 13 | 24 | 16s | 18 | 25 | 32 | 17s | 17 | 21 | 32 | 18s | 19 | 23 | 40 |
Yes, more teams will add, but this gives us a pretty good idea how the clubs are self selecting levels at this point. Roughly 2/3s of the 14s teams are registerd (there are 64 in SCVA), and and 64/80 total 16u division has, with a much higher percentage of the 15s already in place (25 competed in Qualifiers, and 21 are registered). I think, for both 14s and 15s in Open, that Day 1 will no longer be a gimme for the highly competitive teams, but a super tough tourney (particularly 15s if those numbers don't change much - a 3 day tourney between 8 good teams is going to be brutal). We all agree that 25-7 games do no one any good, right? So now we get to see exactly how this plays out. For 16 Open, and without having seen our NorCal brethren this year: MVVC Red over MB Surf for the win. Man, somone must have an inordinate amount of free time. Show up, let the kids play the games, enjoy, go home...rewind...repeat!
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Post by bbk on Nov 14, 2019 9:19:17 GMT -5
The Classic is a 2 day tournament last I checked. Unless you meant that this is for the Bid Tournament in January.
Seems the heading is misleading
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Post by westcoastbias on Nov 14, 2019 11:02:23 GMT -5
I think, for both 14s and 15s in Open, that Day 1 will no longer be a gimme for the highly competitive teams, but a super tough tourney (particularly 15s if those numbers don't change much - a 3 day tourney between 8 good teams is going to be brutal). We all agree that 25-7 games do no one any good, right? So now we get to see exactly how this plays out. Not a big fan of the first day blowouts - but for 15s, if only Bay to Bay joins Open, then you have a 9 team tournament - 3 pools of death?? Doesn't seem like a solution to me - USA division should be available only if the field size warrants it, not by default so mediocre teams can chase a medal. Just my opinion...
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Post by westcoastbias on Nov 14, 2019 11:08:28 GMT -5
Man, somone must have an inordinate amount of free time. Show up, let the kids play the games, enjoy, go home...rewind...repeat! You do you, vblover...
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Post by McAdoooo on Nov 14, 2019 12:41:15 GMT -5
Man, somone must have an inordinate amount of free time. Show up, let the kids play the games, enjoy, go home...rewind...repeat! You do you, vblover... Done
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Post by westcoastbias on Nov 14, 2019 12:54:46 GMT -5
I agree, especially at 15s & 14s without 'warm up' games will make more interesting for the younger kids to jump right into good competition AND good mental floss for Nationals jumping right into a competitive pool at 8 am. But 8 teams?? My initial thought is that if you can't get Open to 16 teams minimum (4 pools of 4), you should dissolve the USA division and just run it all as Open. Otherwise, you're essentially playing Gold Division matches immediately, and the same teams multiple times.
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Post by bealzabubba on Nov 14, 2019 14:36:28 GMT -5
I agree, especially at 15s & 14s without 'warm up' games will make more interesting for the younger kids to jump right into good competition AND good mental floss for Nationals jumping right into a competitive pool at 8 am. But 8 teams?? My initial thought is that if you can't get Open to 16 teams minimum (4 pools of 4), you should dissolve the USA division and just run it all as Open. Otherwise, you're essentially playing Gold Division matches immediately, and the same teams multiple times. I think you could come up with a workable format if it's only 8 teams - one pool of 8, with every team playing every other, then seed two 4 team playoff brackets immediately comes to mind. A minimum of 8 games, a max of 9 assuming it stays at 8, with at most 2 matches against a team you've played. Note: last year, in 15's, the teams could play a min of 6 matches, and a max of 9 over two days.
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Post by sandygears on Nov 15, 2019 15:04:40 GMT -5
Man, somone must have an inordinate amount of free time. Show up, let the kids play the games, enjoy, go home...rewind...repeat! You do you, vblover... Man, someone must have an inordinate amount of Money... (sorry bit of snark there).
I actually totally agree with your sentiment that the side show of "well intentioned" parents is a annoying if not downright negative aspect of youth sports (I've played, coached and ref'ed soccer for years, so ya), but most of the nonsense comes from parents not being particularly well informed or experienced in higher level competitive teams sports and the complexity of the various competitive formats never mind the basic rules of the sports their kids are participating in.
The main reason I am on these boards is to actually get insights from others that have more time and or enthusiasm for understanding the details... So, if I can kindly modify your largely agreeable statement: "BE INFORMED, show up, let the kids play the game, enjoy (and don't get frustrated by what you haven't taken the time to thoroughly understand), go home... rewind...repeat!" Now that, I am down with...
on another note, how do the rankings impact placement in the various brackets (USA vs Open [which I understand is the choice of the club/coach])? do the Gold level teams end up in pools against each other or is it more of a snaking type of placement like the qualifying pools were on day 1.
i understand the changes being pointed out are to improve the day 1 blow outs, but I don't know that I understand where we are starting from to gauge that improvement.
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Post by bealzabubba on Nov 15, 2019 15:28:41 GMT -5
on another note, how do the rankings impact placement in the various brackets (USA vs Open [which I understand is the choice of the club/coach])? do the Gold level teams end up in pools against each other or is it more of a snaking type of placement like the qualifying pools were on day 1.
i understand the changes being pointed out are to improve the day 1 blow outs, but I don't know that I understand where we are starting from to gauge that improvement.
Both HC and JBI are typically seeded on a serpentine, similar to qualifiers. Your teams ranking plays a large part, but I've seen exceptions (i.e. one team in last year's 15s had a fluke issue in qualifiers, still got the #3 seed at HC. It was deserved.) We may see something different this year with 15s, due to the low number of "open" teams. The out of area teams will be added into the seedings, but typically no higher than 5. So, if your team is 10th in SCVA in your age division (don't forget to break out 15's and 17's from 16s/18s), then you'd likely be a ~15 seed in Open. Same team, same ranking, could be a #1 overall in USA (which, candidly, and in this example, you should not be in, but that's me). IIRC last year the team that won USA at JBI in 16s was 23rd or so overall in 16s. Why the USA in 14s/15s is an improvement, and from personal experience: in my sons 13s year, all 14u teams played in one division. My sons team was seeded 72nd, and played the #1 over all seed. They lost, -6 and -7, and it wasn't as close as those scores indicate, and did not benefit either team. Half his team quit volleyball. The idea is to break out "competitive" teams from "learners," which is not necessarily just an age issue. I expect more than a few of the big clubs 13s (and some 12s) could very very easily beat most "learners" 14s, for example. ETA: there's more than a few of "us" that have been discussing this issue for a while. The feeling, generally, is that the blowouts on day one hurt the game, for exactly the reason I describe: kids quit. This is the first year that USAV has offered 14 USA, and the first year that the regional orgs are offering 15 USA - that's why the registrations are interesting, at least to me. For me, I do these posts not because its about how my kids team does, but about how we, collectively, grow the game.
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Post by G$ on Nov 15, 2019 19:20:16 GMT -5
I agree, especially at 15s & 14s without 'warm up' games will make more interesting for the younger kids to jump right into good competition AND good mental floss for Nationals jumping right into a competitive pool at 8 am. But 8 teams?? My initial thought is that if you can't get Open to 16 teams minimum (4 pools of 4), you should dissolve the USA division and just run it all as Open. Otherwise, you're essentially playing Gold Division matches immediately, and the same teams multiple times. I think there are several teams presently unregistered. More teams will fill in. My son's club is missing 17s and 15s (so there will be at least 9!!), and I looked and found other clubs unrepresented. It will fill up.
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Post by fandad on Nov 18, 2019 17:14:36 GMT -5
I'm happy to see that the HC doesn't conflict with the championship round of the NCVA Power League this year. In past year's, they were on the same weekend. PacRim, for one, would pull out the Power League so they could play at the HC instead. So the NCVA tournament would lose out on those teams and the HC would lose out on some of the better clubs from NorCal because they would stay home for their area championship.
With that being said, the NorCal team to watch for at the HC will be PacRim's U17 team. They currently hold the top spot in the 17/18 age group of Power League over some pretty good 18's teams from Bay to Bay, MVVC, and NCVC. The team features Jordan Ewert's little brother Josh, who is Class of 2022.
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Post by bealzabubba on Nov 18, 2019 18:41:26 GMT -5
I'm happy to see that the HC doesn't conflict with the championship round of the NCVA Power League this year. In past year's, they were on the same weekend. PacRim, for one, would pull out the Power League so they could play at the HC instead. So the NCVA tournament would lose out on those teams and the HC would lose out on some of the better clubs from NorCal because they would stay home for their area championship. With that being said, the NorCal team to watch for at the HC will be PacRim's U17 team. They currently hold the top spot in the 17/18 age group of Power League over some pretty good 18's teams from Bay to Bay, MVVC, and NCVC. The team features Jordan Ewert's little brother Josh, who is Class of 2022. As of now, MVVC is only sending one team to HC - 16 Red, with Pac Rim sending a few, as usual. No B2B, but as regular registration doesn't close for HC until later this week, maybe that changes. We're seeing the same effect in January, with the two bid tourneys on different weekends this year: B2B, MVVC and Pac Rim are all coming for JBI, as well as a few good out of state clubs.
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Post by fandad on Nov 19, 2019 11:08:04 GMT -5
I'm happy to see that the HC doesn't conflict with the championship round of the NCVA Power League this year. In past year's, they were on the same weekend. PacRim, for one, would pull out the Power League so they could play at the HC instead. So the NCVA tournament would lose out on those teams and the HC would lose out on some of the better clubs from NorCal because they would stay home for their area championship. With that being said, the NorCal team to watch for at the HC will be PacRim's U17 team. They currently hold the top spot in the 17/18 age group of Power League over some pretty good 18's teams from Bay to Bay, MVVC, and NCVC. The team features Jordan Ewert's little brother Josh, who is Class of 2022. As of now, MVVC is only sending one team to HC - 16 Red, with Pac Rim sending a few, as usual. No B2B, but as regular registration doesn't close for HC until later this week, maybe that changes. We're seeing the same effect in January, with the two bid tourneys on different weekends this year: B2B, MVVC and Pac Rim are all coming for JBI, as well as a few good out of state clubs. NCVA Power League Schedule/ResultsThat MVVC 16 Red team is pretty good, too. They are currently undefeated through 24 matches, only losing one set (to the B2B 15-1's). The B2B 16-1 team is playing up in the 17/18 division, though, so MVVC's record might be a little different if that team were playing in their own age group.
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Post by bealzabubba on Nov 19, 2019 11:55:39 GMT -5
NCVA Power League Schedule/ResultsThat MVVC 16 Red team is pretty good, too. They are currently undefeated through 24 matches, only losing one set (to the B2B 15-1's). The B2B 16-1 team is playing up in the 17/18 division, though, so MVVC's record might be a little different if that team were playing in their own age group.M B2B had the singularly most impressive player (to me) in 15s last year (Snoey), and were a very good team. MVVC? Who're they? . For 16 Open, and without having seen our NorCal brethren this year: MVVC Red over MB Surf for the win.
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