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Post by tomclen on Dec 8, 2019 11:16:19 GMT -5
You're correct, of course. No one has any evidence of where she was. Most likely I knew where she was long before you did. Well, no question you have won the "Neener, Neener" portion of this round.
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Post by yourmom on Dec 8, 2019 11:19:28 GMT -5
I am sorry but that is a really bad anaology. A former coach and a current coach of a PAC12 team is very different than a passionate alumni. Very different. You totally misunderstand. I'm not making an analogy. I'm creating a hypothetical in order to understand where the line is. And I'd suggest Bell as not simply a 'passionate alumni." [br She isn’t just a passionate alumni? I didn’t realize she had been coaching. What would make it that she isn’t just a passionate alumni?
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Post by yourmom on Dec 8, 2019 11:22:32 GMT -5
At the least it was inappropriate. A pre-match pep talk is fine. But it should not be ok for any spectator to come into a team's huddle during a match. But she isn’t just a spectator and some random person. Context as her as an alumni, 2-3x all American and National Championship player should always be a part of this conversation.
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Post by justahick on Dec 8, 2019 11:23:33 GMT -5
You totally misunderstand. I'm not making an analogy. I'm creating a hypothetical in order to understand where the line is. And I'd suggest Bell as not simply a 'passionate alumni." [br She isn’t just a passionate alumni? I didn’t realize she had been coaching. What would make it that she isn’t just a passionate alumni? If she were just a passionate alumnus she wouldn't be allowed in the bench area...or are they planning on building a bigger bench area for the rest of the "just passionate alumni"
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Post by huskergeek on Dec 8, 2019 11:33:41 GMT -5
Okay. First thanks for the resource. It was one of the ones I looked at, as was the NCAA Volleyball Rule book. However, both seem to deal with Staff Members who are Non-Coaches in what I've seen so far. In fact, that is what rule 11.7 you're quoting is titled. "11.7 Limitations on the Number and Duties of Coaches and Noncoaching Staff Members." The D1 Manual is 430 pages and the Volleyball Rule book is 140 so I confess I haven't gone cover to cover on them yet, but I haven't seen a guideline or rule for Non-Staff interacting inside a huddle. That doesn't seem to be covered anywhere I can find. I would very much like to read that resource. There is a fundamental difference between listed personnel joining a huddle for encouragement and an unaffiliated party joining a huddle for any purpose. So, like I said it seems to be a grey area. I am still reading, and if I find a part dealing with this situation specifically and it turns out I am incorrect, I will freely admit to being so. The rule is actually pretty clear. Anyone who gives tactical instruction counts as a coach. If all it took was to say "this person isn't a staff member", then any school could have all the coaches they wanted just by saying, "Oh, these four extra coaches aren't staff members, so they're cool." Obviously some fan yelling from the stands, "Stop tipping so much!" isn't a coach. The problem here is that the Texas coaching staff seems to have willingly allowed Bell to come down and join the huddle. That certainly implies some responsibility for it. I mean, they could have called security and had her escorted away (something they probably would have done for any other random fan). The fact that they didn't shows that they gave at least implicit permission. Yes. I agree with you. That's why I say it's a violation. However, violations in game generally come with specific penalties. I do not see one yet. Should Texas have received an official warning? Should Texas have lost a point? That's the part that seems to be a grey area in what I've read so far. Entering the bench area seems to be fairly well defined, but participating in and actually leading a huddle while doing so, does not. As you said by not removing her, Texas became complicit. Had they blocked her and sent her back to her seat, then there is no issue. She's treated as a fan who entered a restricted area and Texas can deal with the situation as they see fit. But as it stands, I would think a penalty should have been assessed, but I haven't found what that penalty should have been yet. It's an interesting intersection of events that, from what I've been able to read so far, isn't fully defined. Which is why I think there might be Khat Bell Rule adopted in the off-season.
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Post by gibbyb1 on Dec 8, 2019 11:36:55 GMT -5
I don’t know about illegal, I’ll leave that to the congressional scholars. It was however just bizarre. 1. A former player in that situation taking it upon themselves to leave their seat and address a team. 2. A coach not saying “ umm, we love you and appreciate your enthusiasm, but go sit down, we’ve got this” as I said, bizarre.
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Post by yourmom on Dec 8, 2019 11:37:33 GMT -5
[br She isn’t just a passionate alumni? I didn’t realize she had been coaching. What would make it that she isn’t just a passionate alumni? If she were just a passionate alumnus she wouldn't be allowed in the bench area...or are they planning on building a bigger bench area for the rest of the "just passionate alumni" Why do we forgot context. Do I have to list out her accolades every single time? She is a passionate alumni of this team.
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Post by justahick on Dec 8, 2019 11:47:07 GMT -5
If she were just a passionate alumnus she wouldn't be allowed in the bench area...or are they planning on building a bigger bench area for the rest of the "just passionate alumni" Why do we forgot context. Do I have to list out her accolades every single time? She is a passionate alumni of this team. I'm not denying that but there are lots of schools with lots of accomplished, passionate alumni. NCAA doesn't give them special consideration. 1) The only people allowed in the bench area during an NCAA tournament match are those on the bench list. If a school wants the AD on the bench list, they need to kick somebody else off. If the school wants an accomplished, passionate alumni on the bench list, they need to kick somebody off. NCAA is very strict on this and rostered players are sent to the stands all the time because of it. 3) The only people allowed to give tactical instruction are designated coaches. If the school wants her to be a designated coach, they need to replace one of the other coaches. Again, NCAA is very strict on this - e.g. Director of Ops is not allowed to give tactical advise to players.
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Post by Pipe Attack on Dec 8, 2019 11:50:07 GMT -5
According to recollections I have been reading, it seems like she came down as Sullivan (asst coach) was talking to the team and asked for permission to speak with the team in which he agreed.
If you’re giving the team a pep talk and you’re not on the roster or bench, I would think you may be some sort of consultant. As people mentioned earlier, it’s not necessarily just this match, but repercussions moving forward. There are rules and rules should be followed.
Again, so Destinee Hooker would just be allowed to come down from the bench and pep talk the team if she wanted (alum) or even someone like former coach Mick Haley. Texas is a school of riches, so they don’t need any more advantages - especially competitive ones.
Apparently, Bell had also been recently training with the team, so she is not exactly some random person or a Texas alum casually coming down from the stands. From an outsiders perspective, with that information, it would seem as if she could be considered an asst coach.
I have also read this in not a referee issue, but an NCAA one that should have been addressed by the designated official at the scorer’s table. But it probably was not caught. She blended in well, kneeling down and actually could pass as one of the players. So again, if that were the case, why would she be allowed down but people like redshirts not? I’m sure they could have benefited from her UT alumnus pep talk moving forward.
This is a potentially controversy due to the bending of the rules. And it happened pretty much in the open. Something like the Stanford one was at least in the locker room. Also, if the team needed a pep talk, why couldn’t they then just meet Bell in the hallway or locker room? And an in-your-face pep talk is borderline tactical - otherwise, why couldn’t she just remain as a spectator and yell at the team from the stands or maybe walk up to the front of the spectator area? Nope, that was not enough so she entered a coachable / active player area — the bench! What she did was coaching! In tennis, players get reprimanded for looking up in the stands for potential illegal coaching ... what then of a skilled player coming from the stands to address a team (imparting her knowledge - like what would I say to the team if I was in this situation). Put her on the coaching staff otherwise, she has no business on the court!
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Post by justahick on Dec 8, 2019 11:57:02 GMT -5
Looks like it was a failure by the Event Ushers...
"Bench. Bench credentials should be distributed to any non-uniformed personnel who will occupy one of the 16 chairs allotted for each bench. Only individuals wearing a bench credential, or a team uniform will be permitted in the bench area. Ushers and security personnel should strictly enforce this rule and prohibit the addition of chairs and unauthorized personnel to this area. ... Bench (or other) credentials may not be provided to student-athletes who are not eligible to participate in the match"
"Temporary Floor Pass. Each participating institution's administrator will be provided six temporary floor credentials to distribute at his or her discretion (excluding members of the media). No more than six will be provided for any institution, including the host. This credential allows the holder access to the arena floor or locker room after the competition and to the postmatch interviews. It does not constitute free admission to the competition, nor does it allow access to these areas during the competition or between matches. As with all credentials, the Temporary Floor credential should be worn around the neck so that it is always visible ."
"Team Bench Areas. A uniformed security officer should be stationed behind or at the end of each team bench to protect players from spectators, if necessary, and to accompany the teams to and from the locker room."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 11:59:23 GMT -5
I don't think the UT coaches "allowed her" to give the speech. Their Assistant Coaches (particularly the male one - who was talking to the team when Khat jumped in) seemed annoyed and walked off...
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 8, 2019 12:11:28 GMT -5
It kind of sounds like we're coming to a consensus. It was a violation of perhaps several rules. It was a breakdown in normal floor security protocol. There doesn't seem to be any explicitly defined penalty.
I tend to agree with the people who are saying they expect the NCAA to send out notices to all the teams (and host facilities) reminding them that this is not allowed.
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Post by gibbyb1 on Dec 8, 2019 12:11:43 GMT -5
At the least it was inappropriate. A pre-match pep talk is fine. But it should not be ok for any spectator to come into a team's huddle during a match. But she isn’t just a spectator and some random person. Context as her as an alumni, 2-3x all American and National Championship player should always be a part of this conversation. While not random, she is a spectator. It’s bizarre.
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Post by gibbyb1 on Dec 8, 2019 12:13:51 GMT -5
I don't think the UT coaches "allowed her" to give the speech. Their Assistant Coaches (particularly the male one - who was talking to the team when Khat jumped in) seemed annoyed and walked off... “Walked away” is by definition allowed. Impossible for me to imagine a Stanford, Minnesota, PSU, Nebraska player and coaches doing that.
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Post by phuskers97 on Dec 8, 2019 12:14:32 GMT -5
Outside of any type of question of a "violation" or "rule break" this entire situation just shouldn't have happened in the first place. It has nothing to do with it being a "legal move" or anything like that. It's just poor coaching and management from Elliott and his entire staff. To allow it to happen and have no issue with it just from a perspective that this is his team and this is supposed to be on the staff and the players themselves to figure things out. If this were a middle of the week practice or complete prematch pep talk, that is totally okay, but the middle of the match coming from the sidelines without any real given warning (assuming it was fully impromptu which tracks based upon accounts from bell herself) is just unprofessional. Likely nothing major will come from this, but the real issue is that is shows the poor management Elliott and his staff have with this team.
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