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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 30, 2019 23:38:27 GMT -5
Except I said the Baptist culture is being replaced with a non-denominational culture so the Christian values still hold true, just without the Baptist tradition intertwined as much. I was going to reply to this earlier, but I drank a margarita instead. The non-denominational/Baptist distinction you keep making is such a stretch (coming from someone who went to a non-denominational church in high school). Same cake, different icing. The "non-denominational" phenomenon really is just 1) a branding effort that coincides with contemporary music and casual dress and 2) the retirement of some of the antiquated political structures in certain denominations, such as deacons or elders. Many of the non-denominational churches in Central Texas, were once Baptist churches struggling with congregation numbers. In some ways, they actually feel more Evangelical, due to the heightened "spirituality" they preach (i.e. ritual is dumb, it's all about your spiritual relationship with God). But the textualist, "make disciples of all men," spirit is still very predominant. Just because the youth pastor has tattoos, doesn't mean it changes his views on Ephesians. Edit: For the record, not taking away anything you said about his character in your previous reply to my post. I'm trying not to comment on his character, I don't know the guy. But I don't think the "non-denominational" shift carries as much weight as you're suggesting. Having been raised in both Baptist and non-denominational churches, there definite contrasts between the two. Go to any southern Baptist church and it’ll be hard to find a woman in a position of leadership. That can’t be said about non-denominational churches. Take a survey of a Baptist church and more than likely you’ll find the majority to be conservative. You won’t get the same result at a non-denominational church. As you alluded to, non-denominational churches support more of an individual approach to a relationship with God. With that allows more diversity of thought, emotion and approach to the Bible. That, combined with the demographics of the congregation, create a striking difference between the two. It’s more than just the atmosphere and outfits. Yes both still aim to spread the Gospel because that’s what Christ has called us to do. But the approach to that looks different as non-denominational churches are tending to create a more accepting environment that seeks to understand the individual.
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Post by redbeard2008 on Dec 31, 2019 0:10:55 GMT -5
So, contrarily, it isn't the case that "people overplay the Baptist culture of Baylor as an institution", as you insisted earlier. People are free to express their religious beliefs, but that doesn't mean those beliefs should be exempt from criticism, as you seem to be claiming. Except I said the Baptist culture is being replaced with a non-denominational culture so the Christian values still hold true, just without the Baptist tradition intertwined as much. You can criticize the belief all you want, but you were criticizing the presence of the belief along with that. Saying I don’t agree with the opinion you’re expressing is different than saying I don’t think you should express an opinion at all. So, being critical of a belief because I believe it denigrates women and sets a bad example for young girls and boys is the same as forbidding that belief. Therefore, any belief deemed "religious" should be beyond criticism. That's what the ISIS Caliphate believes. Thankfully, we don't live in a theocracy.
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bluepenquin
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Post by bluepenquin on Dec 31, 2019 0:12:33 GMT -5
Not really planning on getting into a Biblical discussion/debate - not really sure that VT is the appropriate place. I am just giving you a glimpse of how a Christian Man views Ephesians 5 which gets into the probable intent implied by Ryan McGuyer's remarks. Several have claimed that the remarks represent a viewpoint that women are below men - and I know that this is not what is in the Bible or in Ephesians 5. I didn't intentionally skip verses in Ephesians 5 - I was only pointing out how verse 23 is almost always taken out of context. I would be more than happy to go through every verse in the Bible - but this really isn't the place for that. BTW, I am among the 'textualist/Evangelical' readers of the Bible - and I can assure you that no Christian husband believes he is = to Christ. And I also believe that the English translation 'love' used in Ephesians 5 is not the same as the Greek word 'Agope' used in that verse. That Ephesians 5 is very clear that both the husband and wife is to 'submit to one another out of reverence for Christ'. Blue, The Ephesians text is often used to shame women (and girls) into not reporting rape and to blame them for the rape, partially the "submit" language and partially the "cleanse" language. What McGuyrre said bothers me much more bc it was said at Baylor bc I know how that language has been used (and is still used). If McGuyre didn't realize that, he needs to spend more time learning how many Baptists and other Evangelicals interpret it. Obviously not all of them but IMO using Ephesians at Baylor was at best horribly insensitive and ill-advised given how that text has been used to pressure women to not report rape and to cover it up to protect men.
Of course, he has a right to say it but IMO he needs to be more sensitive to context and how his words could be interpreted (if he did not mean to endorse the more traditional view of the text or its use in rape cover-ups).
I am not all that familiar in how people (including those who profess to be Christians) have used/abused the language in Ephesians. Certainly raping ones wife would not be in keeping with Husbands should love their wife or anything else in the Bible. Also - the word 'submission' in western culture has a different context than how it is used in the Bible - which has probably further led to misuse. Sounds like McGuyer used he word 'serve' instead of submit - whichever word used, the intent is the same if actually following the Bible. As to this specific case - I don't know anything about McGuyer or Shelly Stafford. I don't see anything unreasonable or inappropriate in this if Stafford is a Christian who believes that a husband and wife should submit (serve) to Christ and each other and that McGuyer knows this of her. Now to say this to a nonbeliever would seem rather awkward (I would think).
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Post by Mocha on Dec 31, 2019 0:13:14 GMT -5
Anyone care to guess how many pages this thread will reach eventually?
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Post by baytree on Dec 31, 2019 0:19:24 GMT -5
Blue, The Ephesians text is often used to shame women (and girls) into not reporting rape and to blame them for the rape, partially the "submit" language and partially the "cleanse" language. What McGuyrre said bothers me much more bc it was said at Baylor bc I know how that language has been used (and is still used). If McGuyre didn't realize that, he needs to spend more time learning how many Baptists and other Evangelicals interpret it. Obviously not all of them but IMO using Ephesians at Baylor was at best horribly insensitive and ill-advised given how that text has been used to pressure women to not report rape and to cover it up to protect men.
Of course, he has a right to say it but IMO he needs to be more sensitive to context and how his words could be interpreted (if he did not mean to endorse the more traditional view of the text or its use in rape cover-ups).
I am not all that familiar in how people (including those who profess to be Christians) have used/abused the language in Ephesians. Certainly raping ones wife would not be in keeping with Husbands should love their wife or anything else in the Bible. Also - the word 'submission' in western culture has a different context than how it is used in the Bible - which has probably further led to misuse. Sounds like McGuyer used he word 'serve' instead of submit - whichever word used, the intent is the same if actually following the Bible. As to this specific case - I don't know anything about McGuyer or Shelly Stafford. I don't see anything unreasonable or inappropriate in this if Stafford is a Christian who believes that a husband and wife should submit (serve) to Christ and each other and that McGuyer knows this of her. Now to say this to a nonbeliever would seem rather awkward (I would think). It's used not only when husbands rape wives but when a man rapes any woman or girl. It plays into defined gender roles with women being put on the Earth to serve men. Reporting a rape isn't helping men so you shouldn't report it. You'll be ruining a good man. There's also the language about husbands needing to cleanse or santify their wives without any corresponding language about women cleansing or sanctifying their husbands. A common view is that, although everyone is inherently a sinner, women are especially sinful bc of Eve. That language is used to blame women and girls for the rape. The passage is used to make women and girls feel responsible for the rape and pressure them into not reporting it.
That's why it seems especially inappropriate and insensitive to me, given Baylor's recent history of covering up rapes.
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Post by mikegarrison on Dec 31, 2019 1:00:42 GMT -5
There's nothing so good that it can't be misused.
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Post by houstonbear15 on Dec 31, 2019 1:29:25 GMT -5
Except I said the Baptist culture is being replaced with a non-denominational culture so the Christian values still hold true, just without the Baptist tradition intertwined as much. You can criticize the belief all you want, but you were criticizing the presence of the belief along with that. Saying I don’t agree with the opinion you’re expressing is different than saying I don’t think you should express an opinion at all. So, being critical of a belief because I believe it denigrates women and sets a bad example for young girls and boys is the same as forbidding that belief. Therefore, any belief deemed "religious" should be beyond criticism. That's what the ISIS Caliphate believes. Thankfully, we don't live in a theocracy. I actually said quite the opposite. Not only were you criticizing the substance of the belief, but you criticized the fact that the belief was expressed in public. Those calls of criticism stand separately in my point. You basically said Baylor shouldn’t express anything at all but I’m not sure whether that’s because you disagree with the belief or because you think a university shouldn’t be expressing religious beliefs.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Dec 31, 2019 2:03:50 GMT -5
I was going to reply to this earlier, but I drank a margarita instead. The non-denominational/Baptist distinction you keep making is such a stretch (coming from someone who went to a non-denominational church in high school). Same cake, different icing. The "non-denominational" phenomenon really is just 1) a branding effort that coincides with contemporary music and casual dress and 2) the retirement of some of the antiquated political structures in certain denominations, such as deacons or elders. Many of the non-denominational churches in Central Texas, were once Baptist churches struggling with congregation numbers. In some ways, they actually feel more Evangelical, due to the heightened "spirituality" they preach (i.e. ritual is dumb, it's all about your spiritual relationship with God). But the textualist, "make disciples of all men," spirit is still very predominant. Just because the youth pastor has tattoos, doesn't mean it changes his views on Ephesians. Edit: For the record, not taking away anything you said about his character in your previous reply to my post. I'm trying not to comment on his character, I don't know the guy. But I don't think the "non-denominational" shift carries as much weight as you're suggesting. Having been raised in both Baptist and non-denominational churches, there definite contrasts between the two. Go to any southern Baptist church and it’ll be hard to find a woman in a position of leadership. That can’t be said about non-denominational churches. Take a survey of a Baptist church and more than likely you’ll find the majority to be conservative. You won’t get the same result at a non-denominational church. As you alluded to, non-denominational churches support more of an individual approach to a relationship with God. With that allows more diversity of thought, emotion and approach to the Bible. That, combined with the demographics of the congregation, create a striking difference between the two. It’s more than just the atmosphere and outfits. Yes both still aim to spread the Gospel because that’s what Christ has called us to do. But the approach to that looks different as non-denominational churches are tending to create a more accepting environment that seeks to understand the individual. This is my issue with the prayer. Baylor is inviting other teams in an effort to “spread the gospel as Christ has called them to do”. You can say that doesn’t intend harm necessarily, but there is certainly intent to spread religious ideals, which is why I find it so inappropriate involving nonreligious uni’sz
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Dec 31, 2019 2:11:47 GMT -5
Btw, I find this as a non-issue even if McGuyre believes women are below men, in the most extreme idea that you guys can portray. It’s a Baptist school and Bayor and McGuyre are in every right.
But it always interests me how various forms of Christianity interpret the bible, and how literal they apply it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 3:15:17 GMT -5
boy....you guys know how to ruin the best of moments. Its really just pathetic. The Nebraska-Stanford National Championship match was a war not only on the court but also on social media including Volleytalk. None of us were good sports about the match up. Stanford fans did their usual," Our school is so much better than yours," and Nebraska fans were more than happy to point out that Foecke schooled the NPOY and the Whiteboard scandal that wouldn't die. While their was a winner on the court, volleytalk didn't produce alot of winners that night including me. I didn't know anything about Baylor. Imagine how exciting this had to be for their coach, school, and fans. Someone had finally broke into the Fab four. They also produced a sensation that earned POY. I expected the usual barbs, nasty comments about each team. I am not a big Wisconsin fan but still wanted someone from the Big to win but the team with all that heart won me over. Imagine my surprise afterward when they embraced, hugged, huddled and seemed to have a deep respect and affection for one another. Their were absolutely no sore losers in this bunch. The winnners stood with the losers in perfect harmony. This was a big reminder to me what sports should be about without its ugly ugly fans including me. That lasted for about 30 minutes until volleytalk erupted with rage over a simple prayer. That beautiful moment in sports came to a crashing halt because the ugliness of just how petty fans can be took over. Let Baylor enjoy this moment in the spotlight and leave them the hell alone. Be a good sport regardless if it irritated you or not. Show our young fans how to treat each other before and after the battle. For most people who watched, they weren't threatened or offended by the post game gathering. Just a smattering of malcontents who can't stand anyone not thinking the way they do. Ignore them, they will always act this way.
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Post by holidayhusker on Dec 31, 2019 8:39:34 GMT -5
Having been raised in both Baptist and non-denominational churches, there definite contrasts between the two. Go to any southern Baptist church and it’ll be hard to find a woman in a position of leadership. That can’t be said about non-denominational churches. Take a survey of a Baptist church and more than likely you’ll find the majority to be conservative. You won’t get the same result at a non-denominational church. As you alluded to, non-denominational churches support more of an individual approach to a relationship with God. With that allows more diversity of thought, emotion and approach to the Bible. That, combined with the demographics of the congregation, create a striking difference between the two. It’s more than just the atmosphere and outfits. Yes both still aim to spread the Gospel because that’s what Christ has called us to do. But the approach to that looks different as non-denominational churches are tending to create a more accepting environment that seeks to understand the individual. This is my issue with the prayer. Baylor is inviting other teams in an effort to “spread the gospel as Christ has called them to do”. You can say that doesn’t intend harm necessarily, but there is certainly intent to spread religious ideals, which is why I find it so inappropriate involving nonreligious uni’sz Does it bother you when the media spreads liberal ideals? Does it offend you that the women’s soccer team promoted the LBGTQ community ?
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Post by holidayhusker on Dec 31, 2019 8:41:29 GMT -5
I am not all that familiar in how people (including those who profess to be Christians) have used/abused the language in Ephesians. Certainly raping ones wife would not be in keeping with Husbands should love their wife or anything else in the Bible. Also - the word 'submission' in western culture has a different context than how it is used in the Bible - which has probably further led to misuse. Sounds like McGuyer used he word 'serve' instead of submit - whichever word used, the intent is the same if actually following the Bible. As to this specific case - I don't know anything about McGuyer or Shelly Stafford. I don't see anything unreasonable or inappropriate in this if Stafford is a Christian who believes that a husband and wife should submit (serve) to Christ and each other and that McGuyer knows this of her. Now to say this to a nonbeliever would seem rather awkward (I would think). It's used not only when husbands rape wives but when a man rapes any woman or girl. It plays into defined gender roles with women being put on the Earth to serve men. Reporting a rape isn't helping men so you shouldn't report it. You'll be ruining a good man. There's also the language about husbands needing to cleanse or santify their wives without any corresponding language about women cleansing or sanctifying their husbands. A common view is that, although everyone is inherently a sinner, women are especially sinful bc of Eve. That language is used to blame women and girls for the rape. The passage is used to make women and girls feel responsible for the rape and pressure them into not reporting it.
That's why it seems especially inappropriate and insensitive to me, given Baylor's recent history of covering up rapes. . This is the dumbest post I’ve ever read. Do you think abuse of women is done by believers or nonbelievers more? You already know the answer to that which makes your argument absolutely stupid.
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trojansc
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Post by trojansc on Dec 31, 2019 9:20:21 GMT -5
This is my issue with the prayer. Baylor is inviting other teams in an effort to “spread the gospel as Christ has called them to do”. You can say that doesn’t intend harm necessarily, but there is certainly intent to spread religious ideals, which is why I find it so inappropriate involving nonreligious uni’sz Does it bother you when the media spreads liberal ideals? Does it offend you that the women’s soccer team promoted the LBGTQ community ? I don't pay too much attention, so what is the official definition of "The Media" Is it certain news outlets only? Do some count but not others? Is "the media" including small-time blogs? I pretty much only watch the news when I'm in a hotel in a random city. That might sound strange, but helps you get a feel of that city. Anyways, I think it's completely normal to have biases within different forms of media. But as for intentionally spreading ideals without supporting substance one way or another, I think that goes against what the mission of the media should be? To boil it down and answer your question -- I don't know if there is a clear cut definition for "liberal ideals" but if there is I probably don't necessarily agree with all of them. People can have various opinions on different issues. I just want to add too that I love learning about different cultures. That includes religion, ways of life, diet, etc. So, observing prayers or even being a part of them is not really an issue at all for me. I genuinely enjoy hearing others perspective's and beliefs. It still doesn't change my opinion that Baylor should not be inviting non-religious universities to participate in prayer with them in attempt to push their religious ideals. (edit:) I just saw your second question. BTW, Baylor's prayer never "offended" me personally. I don't know much about the women's soccer team, but I know that at least one of their stars was gay. Did the women's soccer team involve other nations in their promotion? It could get dicey if we are talking about doing some dramatic stunt against teams like Iran, Saudi Arabia or Jamaica, some places where gays could still be executed? I need to brush up on the laws, and I know they are much stricter on male homosexuality, but you get the idea. If she did as much as carry a rainbow flag as celebration, there's nothing wrong with that. Just like I wouldn't have an issue with Baylor pulling out scripture on their side of the net before, during, and after a match, or doing some religious ceremony as celebration. Even though I don't agree with Iran or Saudi Arabia's stance, they still deserve respect.
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Post by Mark Richards on Dec 31, 2019 10:07:03 GMT -5
Anyone care to guess how many pages this thread will reach eventually? This is not the place for a macho, virile manly man so I think it can get to 50 pages if it is not locked
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Post by ned3vball on Dec 31, 2019 10:14:12 GMT -5
Anyone care to guess how many pages this thread will reach eventually? 666. But we should go back to worrying if Lexi is happy before that point.
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