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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 24, 2007 11:53:48 GMT -5
God... All the others schools suck so hard compared to the ivies... I think i speak for everyone on the board when i said i wish i had gone there instead. It's no big deal. I went to Columbia Law School and sure it opened doors, but it's what you do once inside that'll determine if you get thrown out through that same door. So, what other benefits do we get? Well, there are several alumni associations and groups and we throw BBQs and a few other social events in and around San Francisco, but that's about it. I can imagine having just as much fun (if not more) going to a Tennessee alumni gathering. Except there'd be more rednecks.
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Post by StanfordFan on Apr 24, 2007 12:02:35 GMT -5
I think faculty interaction depends on the Ivy. Harvard, Cornell, and UPenn have enormous undergraduate classes. Columbia (at least when I went back in the mid-90's) had 800 people per class. Princeton and Dartmouth classes all tend to be smaller as well I believe. I had excellent faculty interaction all through undergrad. Sure, there were some big lecture classes such as macro-econ, intro to U.S. politics, etc., but I generally had one big lecture class per semester coupled with three to four classes of about 30 people or seminars. That being said, I also graduated college and law school with $100,000 in debt, so. . . . Wolfgang and Phaedrus, you can poo poo Nobel laureates all you want...and if you brushed shoulders with one in a classroom setting, that does not represent the 1 to 1 research mentorship experience that I describe. I agree that Nobel laureates may not be the best didactic teachers or even the best mentors, however, their exceptional intellectual power can not be underestimated as one of many educational opportunities at an academically elite campus. These people have fundamentally changed the world. For many places like Harvard and Yale, pretty much every senior faculty member represents one of the top minds in their respective fields. If an intellectual environment is sought at all possible levels, the Ivies are hard to beat with a few exceptions like Amherst. Chance, if you bring exceptional people together, exceptional things happen. One of my colleagues whose son is incredibly bright but not industrious remarked that his son was so disappointed in the University of Vermont because he found student discussions unbelievably uninteligible. From a volleyball student's perspective, I worry about their ability to capatalize on the research and other opportunities as part of their educational experience at any university, mainly because there is an Overwhelming commitment to the sports program. This issue is one of the reasons that Ivies don't have athletic scholarships....students lose their academic freedom as slaves to the coach and expectations of their scholarship. My question to youis: how much average face time does an undergraduate get with a superstar senior faculty member? Even at an Ivy? How much interaction does the average undergraduate get with the top notch researchers of their chosen fields? I got my PhD is a public school surrounded by the top researchers in my field, I had opportunities to deal with them on a daily basis and socialized with them somewhat. Yes, the allure of extremely smart people and the daily interaction with them are both educational and seductive. BUT, I was a graduate student. The average undergrad had no standing until they are well into their junior or senior years, and you had to be an exceptional student in order to be accorded these opportunities, i.e. your average Ivy undergrad is not going to get close to those faculty members, no matter how much they yearn for it. The schools with the Nobel Laureates will troop them out for PR purposes but that is not true interaction. You seem to believe in education by osmosis: you just need to get close to them and the brilliance will rub off on you. Not the case at all. I was a freshman at the University of Illinois when I sat down to do a homework set in physics. I sat next to a professor at the library and we kind of exchanged a few words. That professor was John Bardeen the only two time nobel prize winner in the same area. I wasn't any smarter, he imparted no great wisdom on me, I still got a B in mechanics. My best friend in high school took his freshman physics from Richard Feynman at Caltech. He interacted with Feynman weekly at lecture. He got a nice story to tell at bars but he didn't get any smarter than he already was. IT IS WHAT YOU DO WITH THE OPPORTUNITY RATHER THAN GETTING THE OPPORTUNITY THAT MATTERS. You also seem to infer that all the best faculties congregate around the Ivys and only the deadbeats go teach at the large landgrant institutions. This is certainly not the case. It all very depends on the majors and where the superstar professors prefer to work. University of Texas collected nobel laureates or soon-to-be nobel laureates in the 1980's using all that oil money wisely. They ended up with a lot of them. Just for grins and giggles, AM, what is your academic experience such that you believe in education by osmosis?
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Post by Chance on Apr 24, 2007 12:31:18 GMT -5
God... All the others schools suck so hard compared to the ivies... I think i speak for everyone on the board when i said i wish i had gone there instead. It's no big deal. I went to Columbia Law School and sure it opened doors, but it's what you do once inside that'll determine if you get thrown out through that same door... I was being sarcastic. I would never want to go to the ivies, and I'm in one of the many fields were the ivies are not the best option.
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Post by AntennaMagnet on Apr 24, 2007 16:13:42 GMT -5
Phaedrus, you must be weeping for the loss of the Chief. To answer your questions, I think we are in agreement that casual encounters with a Nobel laureate don't always create an epiphany or long lasting edcuational lessons. What I am talking about is day to day interactions based on research. And yes, if you go to an IVY school the professors crave undergraduates in their research programs because they all know that an undergraduate in an IVY program is much smarter than many of the graduate students and oftentimes more productive. So, meaningful time with faculty is rarely an issue. My observation is that meek and unaggressive undergraduates will not have much encounters with faculty other than per chance meetings in the library or through formal classwork and these are the least meaningful forms of education. However, even for an aggressive student athlete on scholarship, I don't think they have enough time to avail themselves of research opportunities with highly regarded investigators, Ivy or otherwise. Thus, the commitment to sport pretty much eliminates a fantastic educational opportunity for students who may have an interest and talent for research and who happen to be athletes. I mean, look at the push back from coaches when one of their players announces that she has to go to Orgo lab instead of practice !
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Post by Phaedrus on Apr 24, 2007 16:34:57 GMT -5
Phaedrus, you must be weeping for the loss of the Chief. To answer your questions, I think we are in agreement that casual encounters with a Nobel laureate don't always create an epiphany or long lasting edcuational lessons. What I am talking about is day to day interactions based on research. And yes, if you go to an IVY school the professors crave undergraduates in their research programs because they all know that an undergraduate in an IVY program is much smarter than many of the graduate students and oftentimes more productive. So, meaningful time with faculty is rarely an issue. My observation is that meek and unaggressive undergraduates will not have much encounters with faculty other than per chance meetings in the library or through formal classwork and these are the least meaningful forms of education. However, even for an aggressive student athlete on scholarship, I don't think they have enough time to avail themselves of research opportunities with highly regarded investigators, Ivy or otherwise. Thus, the commitment to sport pretty much eliminates a fantastic educational opportunity for students who may have an interest and talent for research and who happen to be athletes. I mean, look at the push back from coaches when one of their players announces that she has to go to Orgo lab instead of practice ! And where, praytell, did you get this idea that research professors are aching for undergrad students to mentor? Personal experience or mere conjecture?
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Post by AntennaMagnet on Apr 24, 2007 17:19:01 GMT -5
One of my biggest disappointments is that IVY schools can produce Olympians in basketball, crew, track, fencing and other sports, but not in volleyball. Would Nnanami ever have become an Olympian if she followed her orginal dream to go to Harvard ?
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Post by Chance on Apr 24, 2007 18:50:11 GMT -5
How many awesome basketball players not named bill bradley came from the IVY league?
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Post by BearClause on Apr 24, 2007 18:59:25 GMT -5
How many awesome basketball players not named bill bradley came from the IVY league? There was one named Michael Jordan who played at Penn. I'm not kidding. He's now playing in Europe. www.cantubasket.it/home.asp?pag=22&id_gioc=22
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Post by doc on Apr 24, 2007 19:23:45 GMT -5
God... All the others schools suck so hard compared to the ivies... I think i speak for everyone on the board when i said i wish i had gone there instead. It's no big deal. I went to Columbia Law School and sure it opened doors, but it's what you do once inside that'll determine if you get thrown out through that same door. So, what other benefits do we get? Well, there are several alumni associations and groups and we throw BBQs and a few other social events in and around San Francisco, but that's about it. I can imagine having just as much fun (if not more) going to a Tennessee alumni gathering. Except there'd be more rednecks. If you saw the Country Music Awards Show you might be proud to be around a few "rednecks".
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Post by learning on Apr 24, 2007 22:48:34 GMT -5
The Ivies for undergrad are best when there are no financial concerns and it can be all about who you are meeting. The networking opps are hard to take advantage of when one is working a lot of hours and playing sports too. The sports seasons are shorter, but nonetheless, when one is competitive, one has to improve and to improve one has to put in the hours and do the work.
A really good option is the Honors programs at many schools which are often better than a general education at a highly elite private school.
I also believe that the internet has "flattened the world" forever, and the actual stacks and professors have lost their primary importance in gaining the education. Now more than ever it is what you make of whatever and wherever you are. Especially in America.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2007 1:16:40 GMT -5
IT IS WHAT YOU DO WITH THE OPPORTUNITY RATHER THAN GETTING THE OPPORTUNITY THAT MATTERS. Gee, phaedrus, it seems to me that getting the opportunity matters greatly. One cannot do anything with a nonexistent opportunity. Once a door is opened, of course, there is no guarantee of success, but if the door of opportunity never opens, one never even has a chance to do something with it.
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Post by Phaedrus on Apr 25, 2007 7:13:12 GMT -5
IT IS WHAT YOU DO WITH THE OPPORTUNITY RATHER THAN GETTING THE OPPORTUNITY THAT MATTERS. Gee, phaedrus, it seems to me that getting the opportunity matters greatly. One cannot do anything with a nonexistent opportunity. Once a door is opened, of course, there is no guarantee of success, but if the door of opportunity never opens, one never even has a chance to do something with it. Outside of the most impoverished in our cosiety, I believe we are surrounded by small opportunities. They may not seem like anything at all, but you build upon it, one small step at a time. Most people will disdain the small opportunities while waiting for the larger opportunities to fall on their laps. Much like how people deal with the lottery, they don't play when the pot is small but will pour their money into a large pot, thinking that this will inprove their chances. No doubt opportunity play a role in successes, but the philosophical question is whether success follows automatically from having been given the opportunity without hard work and thought. I think the answer is no, outside of the counterexample exemplified by the present occupant of the Oval Office.
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Post by AntennaMagnet on Apr 25, 2007 9:25:47 GMT -5
I had a Div I coach heavily recruit me for an athletic scholarship, but when he discovered that I got into an IVY school he reaffirmed the scholarship offer but strongly urged me to go IVY because the academic opportunities were so much greater. Interestingly, I would have been part of a NCAA championship team had I not gone IVY, but I think the coach made sense and I am so grateful that he put my interests ahead of his. Somehow I doubt that most volleyball coaches trying to recruit Fab 50s ever create a balanced view for potential recruits or their families.
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Post by iknowiu on Apr 25, 2007 18:10:28 GMT -5
My observation regarding "face time" with the learned professors:
If what seals the deal of institultional selection for a college applicant is face time...then better look at how many tenured professors the school has--especially in the student's area of possible study. Profs without tenure are under pressure to complete the research requirements...and THEY are the ones with less face time to offer students.
Tenured profs, on the other hand, seem to have the time to offer. Whether or not they maintain office hours or spend all their free time prepping for outside consulting jobs is impossible to predict.
Taking the time to scout out the total picture of the school in question and not just relying on "reputation" of those who went there YEARS ago is worth the effort. In general, kids are lazy if they don't see a good reason to devote time to the choice. But, some people are easily pleased and "whatever" happens is OK. If you don't want to be disappointed, then do the work.
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Post by doc on Apr 25, 2007 21:01:57 GMT -5
America is full of opportunities for people in this country regardless of what school you attend. People that are willing to work hard and not blame everyone else for the problems that occur in their lives generally are the successful people. I always find it amazing that people in this country (especially Hollywood left) constantly say how bad this country is yet no one seems to be leaving and people are literally dying trying to get in. My father gave me some advice many years ago that holds true today. Who you know will get you in the door, hard work and what you know will keep you their.
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