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Post by Mac on May 18, 2004 1:13:43 GMT -5
I have to agree with you that it won't be the last we see of Touzinsky. I think he was a "helluva lot" better then Hillman. But to say he has improved a lot is kind of a stretch. Don't get me wrong I think Touzinsky is a good, possibly great, college volleyball player. I just don't think he has improved that much. By the way Mac. At UVSC he did not play against very good volleyball teams, and to compare them to Junior Colleges at times can be a stretch. The Club league in Utah is really weak. There are little USA high school club teams that beat up on 90% of these teams. The one thing I have easily come to realize is that people who are on the benefit receiving end of these stretched situations take on a staunch biase that rivals the unconditional love of a parent for a child. BYU fans will be positive about this to the day they die, while unbiased observers can see the problem clearly. It's the same reason why judges who are assigned to cases where there is a personal relation must ethically step down for conflict of interest reasons. It's the same as when I see my server's ball land fair when you see the same serve land out. As far as Touzinsky is concerned, that 22 year old has proven his ability and has received the accolades he deserves. The original mention about him on this thread was legitimate in comparing it to what he'll be like in 6 more years when he's Hillman's age. Touzinsky brought a huge talent and ability to the game. It sickens me to read anything that is disparaging toward him. Saying he hasn't improved is simply a defensive deflection to the real issue that didn't work. |
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Post by vballmom on May 19, 2004 9:44:02 GMT -5
Thank you Mac! You were right on. Experience is a tremendous teacher. I don't think anyone would say that all club teams are high level teams, but many of them are and he would have played against them during the season and definitely at the national tournament. Arizona has always had a very strong club team and there are quite a few in California as well. Experience plus mature body and mind equals a much better athlete. I coach a girls high school JV team. Sometimes, my assistant coach and I will play against the 6 girls on the other side and we beat them. We are much older than them and we have a lot more experience, so we can anticipate where the ball will be and we know where we need to be. Mind you, I wouldn't try that agains the varsity squad, but still.....
My son came from an area where there isn't a lot of boy's volleyball - he had no high school team to play on. He went to college and ended up being pulled off of his red-shirt freshman year and playing the last half of the season as a true freshman because they decided that they needed him. His vertical increased five inches from his senior year in high school to now. You can't tell me that he won't be immeasurably better seven years from now when he is 27. He will be out of college five years at that point. Give me a break!
I think that the NCAA needs to set some reasonable guidelines that allows for a two-year mission or stint in the military and one red-shirt year. I think that is very fair. That would make the max age 25 or 26, which is still an advantage, but isn't a gross one.
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Post by cougarize on May 19, 2004 17:57:26 GMT -5
That would make the max age 25 or 26, which is still an advantage, but isn't a gross one. So I guess the NCAA should now resort to age discrimination. That's a good suggestion. Come on, you have to think before you actually type these things into your little screen mom. Sure I'm a BYU fan, but I'm a volleyball fan first. I did have problems with the whole Lewis situation, not because the players were older, but because of whether they had played professionally. As a collegiate athlete, it is much easier to dedicate 100% of yourself, early on to a particular sport, without having the other things of life pull at you (eg: marriage, career plans, family, etc.). Plus the dynamics of a team, and molding a group of individuals from varying age groups is exponentially more difficult than having a singular group of 18-22 year olds. The NCAA is correct in not putting an age cap on athletes. It should be based solely on eligibility playing wise. And as far as the club competition goes, did you ever see UVSC play any matches? I can tell you I saw more than my fair share, and having a volleyball background, Joe played against poor competition. Go back to my original post and think about what I said please. Competition is always the largest barometer in improvement and club is closer to elite high school more than anything else. Plus the resources and coaching at UVSC were and still are lacking. Joe just played with his natural talent. |
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Post by Mac on May 19, 2004 18:51:07 GMT -5
So I guess the NCAA should now resort to age discrimination. That's a good suggestion. Come on, you have to think before you actually type these things into your little screen mom. Sure I'm a BYU fan, but I'm a volleyball fan first. I did have problems with the whole Lewis situation, not because the players were older, but because of whether they had played professionally. As a collegiate athlete, it is much easier to dedicate 100% of yourself, early on to a particular sport, without having the other things of life pull at you (eg: marriage, career plans, family, etc.). Plus the dynamics of a team, and molding a group of individuals from varying age groups is exponentially more difficult than having a singular group of 18-22 year olds. The NCAA is correct in not putting an age cap on athletes. It should be based solely on eligibility playing wise. And as far as the club competition goes, did you ever see UVSC play any matches? I can tell you I saw more than my fair share, and having a volleyball background, Joe played against poor competition. Go back to my original post and think about what I said please. Competition is always the largest barometer in improvement and club is closer to elite high school more than anything else. Plus the resources and coaching at UVSC were and still are lacking. Joe just played with his natural talent. Pulllllleasse. This is utter BS. You just won't, don't, can't get it. Take off your biased glasses. I'm all for age discrimination, if that's what you want to call it. You are NEVER going to convince anyone with half a brain that Hillman's 27 11/12th years is the same as a freakn' elite high school player. Give it up. |
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Post by vballguy2001 on May 19, 2004 19:55:51 GMT -5
The one thing I have easily come to realize is that people who are on the benefit receiving end of these stretched situations take on a staunch biase that rivals the unconditional love of a parent for a child. BYU fans will be positive about this to the day they die, while unbiased observers can see the problem clearly. It's the same reason why judges who are assigned to cases where there is a personal relation must ethically step down for conflict of interest reasons. It's the same as when I see my server's ball land fair when you see the same serve land out. As far as Touzinsky is concerned, that 22 year old has proven his ability and has received the accolades he deserves. The original mention about him on this thread was legitimate in comparing it to what he'll be like in 6 more years when he's Hillman's age. Touzinsky brought a huge talent and ability to the game. It sickens me to read anything that is disparaging toward him. Saying he hasn't improved is simply a defensive deflection to the real issue that didn't work. To say I am biased towards BYU is a stretch. I agree the deal with Hillman is very suspicious and unfair. As with my Touzinsky comment I will stand by it. I have watched him every year that he played, and all I have to say is this. 1. by far he is the best opposite in college volleyball. 2. With that being said however I do not feel he has improved that much to make me say WOW. Minimal improvement is all I am stating. This is my opinion with the matches I have saw. You are free to disagree, just don't call me biased. From day one I have stated that this season for BYU is very suspect from Hillman to Batista. |
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Post by vballguy2001 on May 19, 2004 19:58:56 GMT -5
Thank you Mac! You were right on. Experience is a tremendous teacher. I don't think anyone would say that all club teams are high level teams, but many of them are and he would have played against them during the season and definitely at the national tournament. Arizona has always had a very strong club team and there are quite a few in California as well. Experience plus mature body and mind equals a much better athlete. I coach a girls high school JV team. Sometimes, my assistant coach and I will play against the 6 girls on the other side and we beat them. We are much older than them and we have a lot more experience, so we can anticipate where the ball will be and we know where we need to be. Mind you, I wouldn't try that agains the varsity squad, but still..... My son came from an area where there isn't a lot of boy's volleyball - he had no high school team to play on. He went to college and ended up being pulled off of his red-shirt freshman year and playing the last half of the season as a true freshman because they decided that they needed him. His vertical increased five inches from his senior year in high school to now. You can't tell me that he won't be immeasurably better seven years from now when he is 27. He will be out of college five years at that point. Give me a break! I think that the NCAA needs to set some reasonable guidelines that allows for a two-year mission or stint in the military and one red-shirt year. I think that is very fair. That would make the max age 25 or 26, which is still an advantage, but isn't a gross one. I will have to agree with you. 27 is getting to old to be playing. I think that is the purpose of the rule, but people stretch it to their advantage so you have 28 yr old sophomores from dominican republic. |
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Post by Mac on May 19, 2004 20:50:46 GMT -5
As with my Touzinsky comment I will stand by it. For the love of mercy. This isn't about Touzinsky. You're again trying to deflect the topic. It's about anyone else who's any good after 4-5 normal years after high school, and how much better they'd be if they had Hillman's near extra decade under their belts. You guys are unbelivable. Scott was just a convenient example. |
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Post by Beachy on May 19, 2004 22:19:47 GMT -5
I have to break it to cougarize but the NCAA already has "age discrimination" in place. In the sport of football, there is a top end age limit. Think Chris Wienke(sp?) from somewhere in Florida a few years back. He was 26 years old and played his last year because he would not have been eligible.
Don't overthink this. BYU made an incredible comeback in the FF. After the shellacking in the first game, they showed great maturity to bounce back and take the second game. BYU also rose to the occasion in game 5 and come back from several game points( more maturity). The advantage of mental and emotional maturity of BYU (and the lack there of by LBSU) gave BYU the last game and the match. Maturity. It comes with age.
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Post by midwestfan on May 19, 2004 22:44:31 GMT -5
Well said Beachy!!!
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Post by Walley on May 20, 2004 19:35:50 GMT -5
Pulllllleasse. This is utter BS. You just won't, don't, can't get it. Take off your biased glasses. I'm all for age discrimination, if that's what you want to call it. You are NEVER going to convince anyone with half a brain that Hillman's 27 11/12th years is the same as a freakn' elite high school player. Give it up. okaayy. It just might be me but what you just said there seems pretty darn hypocritical to me. You seem to be biased against Joe because of his age and experience level and yet you’re saying cougerize is biased for BYU? And cougerize is right, by the way, about Joe's experience with competition. |
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Post by Mac on May 20, 2004 19:40:34 GMT -5
Like I said, no one with half a brain will be convinced.
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Post by Walley on May 20, 2004 19:42:12 GMT -5
And as I said you're being hypocritical.
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Post by Mac on May 20, 2004 19:53:30 GMT -5
OK, you're right Wally. I admit it. Joe is exactly as talented as a high school player. I mean, when he actually graduated from high school in the last century/decade/millennium/generation, he was then barely as good as a junior high player. He improved tenfold over the next 10 years to be a pretty good high school level player while playing against all those college underachievers. So, I hope that is better, and is a more accurate dipiction of his accomplishments. No disrespect intended. Just agreeing with all the BYU fans comments. I've seen the light. And Cougarize, I've completely misinterpreted all those comments that I thought were overly favoring BYU no matter what circumstances they were born from. Now, I'm going in to say a few mea culpas. Uh, not sure if you know what those are. Oh well.
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Post by Walley on May 20, 2004 20:04:42 GMT -5
Well.... thank you at least for acknowledging that Joe a good player. I'm sorry if I sounded rude. I tend to get very defensive over the BYU players.
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Post by Mac on May 20, 2004 20:17:27 GMT -5
Does anyone know if there's a posting hall of fame? I think these qualify.   |
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