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Post by Wiz on Sept 23, 2007 1:51:22 GMT -5
Anyway, it was a good win for Hawaii to stay on top of the WAC standings for now. Anybody has the stats on match?
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Post by Gorf on Sept 23, 2007 1:53:00 GMT -5
I'm not sure I understand all the talk of UH traveling. They make the trip to the mainland 4 times this season, or 3 times if they stay on the mainland the 5-6 days between the Utah State match and the Nebraska match. That's either 3-4 long flights for 9 matches on the mainland. The 2nd and 3rd matches each trips are similar or or not excessively worse than match travels for many / most conferences plus they play ~2/3rds of their matches at home? What am I missing / misunderstanding in their travel issues? I think it is the HOURS spent traveling as well as the time zones that they cross. I know I am too old to be able to even stay awake for the schedule they keep starting with the red-eye out of Honolulu...Never mind any athletic endeavors short of tying my shoes. I could see it impacting the 1st match significantly, however, they don't play any of their road matches on back to back days so they could travel ASAP after the the 1st and 2nd matches are over (getting as much rest as possible on the bus / plane) then have pretty much the entire next to get a lot of rest and perhaps do some studying, have their team meals (an meetings at the same time.) So I guess I still don't understand the total issue. I know plenty of other conferences that have long trips between the first match of a weekend then most of the time play the next night without the extra day off that Hawaii gets between mainland matches. For the Big 10: 1) Ohio State / Penn State is something like 4+ hours of driving from Columbus to State College. Teams could fly part of the way to Pittsburgh then still have a 3+ hour drive from there to State College. 2)Wisconsin / Illinois depends on whether team decide to fly to Savoy from Madison. Only "puddle hoppers" fly in / out of the C/U airport unless the airport has grown in recent years. 3) Michigan State / Northwestern teams would likely fly between the two since a bus trip would take many hours each way - especially with the road work being done on parts of the main highways the trip would use in both Indiana and Illinois. 4) Minnesota / Iowa again depends on whether teams decide to bus or fly. I think using a bus might make the most sense because of no standing in lines at airports. 5) Indiana / Purdue - the shortest trip to play travel parters on the road) Michigan (the odd team this year) OTOH: It probably isn't worth starting another long debate about the travel issue - I probable just don't understand the whole situation. A good win for the Wahine tonight whether or not is was sloppy and frankly comparing the stats for this match to stats from other big matches this weekend show this match to be not nearly as sloppy (based on errors and such) as a fair number of those other big match especially those with some of the "elite" teams.
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Post by Gorf on Sept 23, 2007 1:55:15 GMT -5
i think we are comparing the washington/oregon 5 gamer. not oregon state, those are two completely different teams and two completely different schools. so why are we looking back at hawaii being swept by oregon state? thats over and done with. 5 gamers show two teams are comparable and should be closely ranked. In Washington/Oregon case, it shows Oregon should be ranked HIGHER. In Hawaii/NMSU case, it shows Hawaii should be ranked LOWER. I brought up the Oregon State comparison to show that Washington and Hawaii are NOT playing at the same level, so that Washington going 5 with Oregon is NOT the same as Hawaii going 5 with NMSU. Why not Washington lower and NMSU higher. Your assertion is highly subjective. Washington taken to 5 games by a team ranked 16 slots below them looks worse than Hawaii taken to 5 games by a team ranked 12 slots below them. OTOH: ITOH: poll voters in general don't seem to care much about scores of the number of games matches last.
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Sept 23, 2007 2:01:44 GMT -5
i think we are comparing the washington/oregon 5 gamer. not oregon state, those are two completely different teams and two completely different schools. so why are we looking back at hawaii being swept by oregon state? thats over and done with. 5 gamers show two teams are comparable and should be closely ranked. In Washington/Oregon case, it shows Oregon should be ranked HIGHER. In Hawaii/NMSU case, it shows Hawaii should be ranked LOWER. I brought up the Oregon State comparison to show that Washington and Hawaii are NOT playing at the same level, so that Washington going 5 with Oregon is NOT the same as Hawaii going 5 with NMSU. his point had nothing to do with whether the teams deserved their rankings (many/most HI fans on here have agreed that HI is ranked too high in the AVCA poll). rather, the scenarios were similar in the sense that the teams were at relatively the same positions in the poll (especially NMSU and Oregon) and walked away with relatively similar results this weekend -- 5-gamers the higher ranked teams winning. the question that Over appeared to be posing was ... How would AVCA voters treat those results? which when you think about it is an interesting question ... but let's go with your reasoning for a second ... let's assume you're correct about HI. they go 5 with a lower ranked team, and that means they should've been ranked lower (which of course, may very well be true given their uneven play, but hey the HI fans didn't put them at #13 -- the voters did). but then why do the results automatically mean that? why do they only mean that Oregon should've been higher and HI lower? those same results could just as easily mean that UW should be ranked lower or that NMSU should be ranked higher... you're simply taking the results and making them mean what you want them to mean ... which is the very same thing you're insinuating that Over is doing ...
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Sept 23, 2007 2:08:04 GMT -5
I think it is the HOURS spent traveling as well as the time zones that they cross. I know I am too old to be able to even stay awake for the schedule they keep starting with the red-eye out of Honolulu...Never mind any athletic endeavors short of tying my shoes. I could see it impacting the 1st match significantly, however, they don't play any of their road matches on back to back days so they could travel ASAP after the the 1st and 2nd matches are over (getting as much rest as possible on the bus / plane) then have pretty much the entire next to get a lot of rest and perhaps do some studying, have their team meals (an meetings at the same time.) So I guess I still don't understand the total issue. I know plenty of other conferences that have long trips between the first match of a weekend then most of the time play the next night without the extra day off that Hawaii gets between mainland matches. For the Big 10: 1) Ohio State / Penn State is something like 4+ hours of driving from Columbus to State College. Teams could fly part of the way to Pittsburgh then still have a 3+ hour drive from there to State College. 2)Wisconsin / Illinois depends on whether team decide to fly to Savoy from Madison. Only "puddle hoppers" fly in / out of the C/U airport unless the airport has grown in recent years. 3) Michigan State / Northwestern teams would likely fly between the two since a bus trip would take many hours each way - especially with the road work being done on parts of the main highways the trip would use in both Indiana and Illinois. 4) Minnesota / Iowa again depends on whether teams decide to bus or fly. I think using a bus might make the most sense because of no standing in lines at airports. 5) Indiana / Purdue - the shortest trip to play travel parters on the road) Michigan (the odd team this year) OTOH: It probably isn't worth starting another long debate about the travel issue - I probable just don't understand the whole situation. A good win for the Wahine tonight whether or not is was sloppy and frankly comparing the stats for this match to stats from other big matches this weekend show this match to be not nearly as sloppy (based on errors and such) as a fair number of those other big match especially those with some of the "elite" teams. Gorf ... you should just go with the Wahine on their next road trip!! haha ... ;D with your brand of humor mixed in with Hittle and Kaufman, i'm sure it'd make for some fun times on the road ... and make all the traveling less grueling. and think of all the travel miles you'd earn ...
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Post by chipNdink on Sept 23, 2007 2:08:24 GMT -5
... Why not Washington lower and NMSU higher. You assertion is highly subjective. Because Oregon only had 1 loss (and should've been ranked higher) before playing Washington, who is still undefeated; while Hawaii already had 3 losses (and should've been ranked lower) before playing NMSU. No subjectivity there, just going by win/loss records, and performance against same opponents (Oregon State in this case).
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Post by bucky415 on Sept 23, 2007 2:08:54 GMT -5
It looks like Hawaii got themselves another WAC title, because I don't see NMSU winning in Hawaii and the Wahine losing another match. It must have been a great match to watch, but really stressful for the fans of both teams. I will give Hawaii credit for fighting off so many match points to win. That shows some determination. Also, it looks like the Hawaii defense was pretty strong. That is a lot of digs. Offensively, it looks like more of the same. How good can you be if you hit .200 or so as a team? Did they not have the ball control to get Kaufman more sets? You would think they would go to her more if possible when she is putting the ball away on nearly every swing, especially with Hittle not putting the ball away and Otineru and Houston not having standout performances by their standards. Still, you take a road win against a good team any way you can get it. It is good for the Wahine and the WAC that the Aggies are staying around as a challenge. I doubt SJSU will push them. Remember in 2005 when a SJSU player said, "if we can beat Wisconsin, we can beat Hawaii?" As it turned out, they could do neither.
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Post by chipNdink on Sept 23, 2007 2:15:15 GMT -5
... but let's go with your reasoning for a second ... let's assume you're correct about HI. they go 5 with a lower ranked team, and that means they should've been ranked lower (which of course, may very well be true given their uneven play, but hey the HI fans didn't put them at #13 -- the voters did). but then why do the results automatically mean that? why do they only mean that Oregon should've been higher and HI lower? those same results could just as easily mean that UW should be ranked lower or that NMSU should be ranked higher... you're simply taking the results and making them mean what you want them to mean ... which is the very same thing you're insinuating that Over is doing ... No, I'm going by win/loss records and performance against same opponents. Washington (0 losses), Oregon (2 losses), Hawaii (3 losses), NMSU (3 losses). Hawaii swept by Oregon State (in Hawaii), Oregon State swept by Washington (in Oregon).
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Post by Gorf on Sept 23, 2007 2:25:41 GMT -5
... Why not Washington lower and NMSU higher. You assertion is highly subjective. Because Oregon only had 1 loss (and should've been ranked higher) before playing Washington, who is still undefeated; while Hawaii already had 3 losses (and should've been ranked lower) before playing NMSU. No subjectivity there, just going by win/loss records, and performance against same opponents (Oregon State in this case). Going by win / loss records is highly subjective since the matches for each team have little if any overlap for the pre-conference matches. Your argument for Oregon over NMSU is a farce. Oregon's loss was against Purdue. NMSU's losses were against Nebraska and Texas. So you're equating Purdue with Nebraska / Texas. Using your type of subjective logic Purdue ought to be ranked higher than Washington since Purdue beat Oregon in 4 games and Oregon took Washington to 5 games.
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Sept 23, 2007 2:37:28 GMT -5
... but let's go with your reasoning for a second ... let's assume you're correct about HI. they go 5 with a lower ranked team, and that means they should've been ranked lower (which of course, may very well be true given their uneven play, but hey the HI fans didn't put them at #13 -- the voters did). but then why do the results automatically mean that? why do they only mean that Oregon should've been higher and HI lower? those same results could just as easily mean that UW should be ranked lower or that NMSU should be ranked higher... you're simply taking the results and making them mean what you want them to mean ... which is the very same thing you're insinuating that Over is doing ... No, I'm going by win/loss records and performance against same opponents. Washington (0 losses), Oregon (2 losses), Hawaii (3 losses), NMSU (3 losses). Hawaii swept by Oregon State (in Hawaii), Oregon State swept by Washington (in Oregon). no response for the first part of my post? alright we can put that one away .... prior to the weekend, oregon's loss was to an unranked opponent (albeit, oregon was unranked then too ... and are credited with a win against ranked Ohio St). but also prior to the weekend, nmsu only had losses to ranked teams. i'm not saying that nmsu should get a bonus for having lost to much higher ranked opponents... but the bottom line is that nmsu has not lost to anyone they weren't supposed to, while arguably, oregon has. based on those results or records (as you like to say), an argument can be made that nmsu should be higher (just as much as oregon should) even in light of nmsu's 5-gamer with hawaii, which then puts a knot in the whole "I'm going by win/loss and performance ... " line of reasoning. the 2 losses versus 3 losses thinking has less weight in light of who those losses were against. and c'mon, i know you're smart enough to know that having 2 losses compared to another team's 3 losses does not automatically make one team better than the other. we'd have an even crazier AVCA poll if that's the standard we're going by ...
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Post by aaronic on Sept 23, 2007 2:38:57 GMT -5
i think we are comparing the washington/oregon 5 gamer. not oregon state, those are two completely different teams and two completely different schools. so why are we looking back at hawaii being swept by oregon state? thats over and done with. 5 gamers show two teams are comparable and should be closely ranked. In Washington/Oregon case, it shows Oregon should be ranked HIGHER. In Hawaii/NMSU case, it shows Hawaii should be ranked LOWER. I brought up the Oregon State comparison to show that Washington and Hawaii are NOT playing at the same level, so that Washington going 5 with Oregon is NOT the same as Hawaii going 5 with NMSU. Not biased? There is nothing to support your claim here besides how Hawaii lost in 3 to Oregon St. in the first week of the season. I'm not sure if you've even seen Hawaii or NMSU play besides on paper. Or have you? Now i'm in no way supporting Hawaii/NMSU being better than UW/UO in any way or vice versa, but it just doesn't make sense to make a decision on this solely based on matches played about four weeks ago. What if Hawaii has improved since? What if that match was a fluke? Again i'm not trying to imply that Hawaii is good or vice versa. Apparently it seems like you know all about this without even seeing how a team plays based on a decision. The only claim you have is that you have a bias. USC just won in five games to Arizona. No it doesn't mean Arizona is really good, it just means that USC is ranked too high. How's that assesment? ::)Please come up with something a little more credible.
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Post by chipNdink on Sept 23, 2007 2:41:26 GMT -5
... Going by win / loss records is highly subjective since the matches for each team have little if any overlap for the pre-conference match. Why do you keep ignoring the matches against Oregon State?? Wrong, I NEVER equated ANY SUCH THING. My argument for Oregon over NMSU is that not only does Oregon have fewer losses, but that one of NMSU's losses was to HAWAII. Wrong. IF Purdue were UNDEFEATED, then Purdue beating Oregon more easily WOULD rank them higher than an UNDEFEATED Washington. But Purdue is NOT undefeated. Going by your stupid logic of ignoring overall win/loss records, YOU would rank Oregon State over Hawaii merely because Oregon State beat Hawaii.
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Post by Gorf on Sept 23, 2007 2:48:15 GMT -5
Gorf ... you should just go with the Wahine on their next road trip!! haha ... ;D with your brand of humor mixed in with Hittle and Kaufman, i'm sure it'd make for some fun times on the road ... and make all the traveling less grueling. and think of all the travel miles you'd earn ... I'd be thinkng more about the number of scoldings I would get from my various doctors. My health hasn't been very good this year, but some things are getting relatively under control or even improving to an extent. So long distance traveling isn't very likely anytime soon. If it were to happen though I'd have to wear Gopher colors and perhaps my Gopher ears hat or my "cat in the hat" style hat in Gopher colors. I'd have to tell everyone that I discovered that H1 being an interstate has a magic exit from Oahu that ends up near one of the scening overlooks (with an impressive view of a corn field) in Iowa with another magic return entrance from Iowa back to Oahu. I imagine I'd have made a wrong turn and ended up at the UH campus rather than the Iowa campus. I'd probably have to write the "Hittle Tip" song and find a way to become part of the UH travel entourage.
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Sept 23, 2007 2:52:51 GMT -5
Gorf ... you should just go with the Wahine on their next road trip!! haha ... ;D with your brand of humor mixed in with Hittle and Kaufman, i'm sure it'd make for some fun times on the road ... and make all the traveling less grueling. and think of all the travel miles you'd earn ... I'd be thinkng more about the number of scoldings I would get from my various doctors. My health hasn't been very good this year, but some things are getting relatively under control or even improving to an extent. So long distance traveling isn't very likely anytime soon. If it were to happen though I'd have to wear Gopher colors and perhaps my Gopher ears hat or my "cat in the hat" style hat in Gopher colors. I'd have to tell everyone that I discovered that H1 being an interstate has a magic exit from Oahu that ends up near one of the scening overlooks (with an impressive view of a corn field) in Iowa with another magic return entrance from Iowa back to Oahu. I imagine I'd have made a wrong turn and ended up at the UH campus rather than the Iowa campus. I'd probably have to write the "Hittle Tip" song and find a way to become part of the UH travel entourage. aah ... i see ... well b/w you, Hittle and Kaufman, i'm sure there'd be a lot of laughs on that road trip ... and don't they say laughter is the best medicine .......... was that too cheesy? yeah, ok, i thought so ... make sure you include a verse in your song about Hittle nearly getting beheaded by a Lindsey Yon kill ... ;D
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Post by chipNdink on Sept 23, 2007 2:55:14 GMT -5
.. the 2 losses versus 3 losses thinking has less weight in light of who those losses were against. and c'mon, i know you're smart enough to know that having 2 losses compared to another team's 3 losses does not automatically make one team better than the other. we'd have an even crazier AVCA poll if that's the standard we're going by ... Oregon should be ranked higher than NMSU, because one of NMSU's losses was to Hawaii.
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