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Post by aardvark on Jan 6, 2009 12:34:11 GMT -5
Sigh. No, Bill, you're thinking of an armadillo. Aardvarks are furry all over. My prediction for the Viking win was based upon...HOPE and faith. Just as all those who voted for OBAMA based their election prediction on. My error on the Vikes is nothing compared to what we elected. Why can't you have hope and faith for our president-elect? Instead, you are claiming he's a catastrophic failure before he even gets a day in office. Try and be nicer? mmm ..I AM the nicest guy around, I open doors not only for little'ol ladies but for everyone. I feed my wild rabbits and deer and pheasants every year with my corn, I raise $$$ for the food shelf... I am Santa to several families...probably yours too...!  I use my turn signal..I NEVER show R's IQ in frustration to other drivers... While I am not sure that feeding wild animals is necessarily such a good thing, I certainly applaud you for the holding doors open, being Santa to families, and the proper use of the turn signal. Does all of that make you the nicest guy around? Uhhhh.... No. Not unless you live in a very remote area. These things that you do aren't things that the posters on this board see that you do. The only things we see you do are your posts, which are uniformly arrogant and obnoxious. I pick up garbage from the roadside...I am only tough in a few things and that is only on friendly topics..ask pickle dude.. Bowling...if you dont bowl over 200 stay home... VB....I HAVE SEEN IT ALL. DEBATE...I'll pick the losing side to show how little others know about it.  Your ability to bowl or knowledge of volleyball has nothing to do with being nice. If you keep playing the part of the condescending jerk, then you'll never convince anyone here of anything, even in the cases where you're actually right. Now back to education. " You don't want me to have a math major to teach Algebra, geometry, and pre-calc? " No... I want you to CARE about KIDS which is way more important than knowledge. You dont NEED teachers with all that paper garbage to teach..Computor programs will do just fine. I would venture to say that most teachers care about kids, otherwise they wouldn't enter that profession. After all, dealing with kids on a regular basis is a maddening experience, and it isn't a career with many cushy benefits. I do feel that teachers can only teach effectively if they themselves know the material. Computer Programs are no substitute for a good teacher, because they can't inspire kids to learn, which is really 2/3 of the battle. Being a computer programmer myself, I am well aware of the limitations of them. And Computers don't need Health care,vacations,free parking..fancy break rooms...and NO UNIONS need represent them. My wife is a public middle school teacher. She does get health care. But then, so do I. She does get free parking at her workplace. But then, so do I. Fancy break rooms? I've seen the teacher's lounge at her school. It's pathetic. I get much better than that, where I work, and also earn a much higher salary for a far less demanding job. Vacations? She gets the entire summer off and a fair number of holidays, but gets almost no free days of her own during the school year. Still, because she gets the entire summer off, it's fair to say that in her case, she gets more time off than the average worker on the street. Kids can read programs and follow basic instuctions...Teacher UNIONS will never tell you that. It isn't about education of Children..but preserving a style of life...out dated as it may be. Like being the best UNION made buggy whip factory... So you don't like teachers because they are heavily unionized? Is that it? You know, there was once a time where unions didn't exist. They sprang into being because corporations wanted to pay their workers as little as possible for the work they did, and were actively colluding to suppress wages and benefits. Workers realized they were being exploited, and banded together for their common interest. Obviously, in many cases the unions themselves became abusive with their power, to the detriment of the corporations that were employing them. The GOP has tried to play up the "inherent evil" of unions for a long time, and have had considerable success in getting society to look upon them with disfavor. So unions have steadily declined in power for many years, and are now but a shadow of their former selves. Are we better off as a nation? I would say no. Now, the excesses in compensation go to the board room members, not the rank and file. CEO's today typically get paid obscene amounts of money. And when a business today craters, it's usually because of poor decisions made by those same CEOs. Society will need to make a break from traditional thinking... Be progressive I think they call it. Think whats best for everyone...not just teacher Unions. I HATE MATH..but love logic... so based upon your salary ..what didn't you disclose....? Any body....? Timmy ..in the back row.... "they didn't Mention Benefit package increases.." Good Tim. You're right.. UNIONS loath to mention the legacy cost that public service employees get..Sick days ,birthdays,holidays, 2nd full moon in a month... Health insurance...vacations ...and tax credits... I can go on and on about all public service workers...FIREMEN,policemen... All make a better living than in the private sector. I'm incredulous. You think firemen, policemen, and teachers make a better living than people in the private sector do? Really? Wow. That is so delusional that I don't know where to begin. My suggestion to you (since you claim that you are one of the nicest people around) is that you work as a volunteer fireman in your part time. You'll soon find that it's one of the most dangerous jobs in existence, and that real monetary compensation, that is wages plus benefits, is shockingly low. Being a policeman is safer, but you can still get shot at. Do people say they want to enter these professions to live a life on easy street? I think not. Fine if our taxes and economy wes great. Bad if Minnesota taxpayers pay More in Federal taxes to support teachers,policeman and fire fighters in Calif. My whole debate in a nut shell... Everybody wants everything ,but only of someone else pays for it. Did I mention I flunked Algebra 2 in High school... I was already making more money doing drywall than my teacher made. Boy.. things have changed. No, they haven't changed. Teachers are still paid squat, in comparison to other types of workers with similar training and experience. |
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Post by aardvark on Jan 6, 2009 14:27:58 GMT -5
My rerbuttal... It's soo eaaasy.... 1..." 1. I and most do care deeply about kids. Strike 1 against you" Billy in the front row says... I never questioned anybodies desire or wanting or caring to teach our children...I Questioned the TEACHER UNIONS... A debate ploy to throw ones opponent of track. re read and post where I said teachers don't care. No point. Given that I made the same inference from your post that rhino did, perhaps the real problem here is your inability to articulate your points? 2. " If by fancy break room you mean the one with a 60 year old plastic couch and a microwave that doesn't work then good. If not, strike 2 against you. Rebuttal...NICE try... YOU can BUY a new MICROWAVE for under a $100 and get a used one from a friend...usually for free. here's so more from you " work from 7-3 with a 15 minute "break" to eat lunch which I usually slop onto student papers. " I failed at algebra but not debate... sooo... Since when is 7- 3 considered an 8 hour day? 15 minute lunches violate every state ,federal and UNION rule. Either you are lying or worst ...a scab?..just joking... Now why don't YOU ADD the number of working DAYS that you actually work, vs. the rest of the GENERAL PUBLICS work year and then we'll talk about your $50,000 year salary ..while everyone Else's salary contracted or they lost jobs. NO point.. YOU WONT PLACE YOUR JOB SECURITY ON THE TABLE FOR DEBATE. Knowing you have a job in troubling times while no one else does...PEACE OF MIND ...gotta be woth something...?? First of all, you were the one that brought up "fancy break rooms". Perhaps they exist somewhere in some elite private school (Harvard would be a good place to look for one, I think), but in our nation's public schools, they pretty much aren't there. When rhino called you on this, you made a glib retort and then changed the subject to length of working day and job security. My wife does have that early end of day that you mention, while I don't. So why is it that I keep beating her home all of the time? Well, it's because she spends time with her students after school every day, without monetary compensation for it. This is expected of her. She also has concerts (she is a band teacher) that she must conduct, again without additional compensation. And those papers she has to grade are all on her own time. If she was a lousy teacher and didn't do any of these things, she would soon be out of a job. So much for job security. "3. Kids can follow basic directions? Like when I put all 10 quiz answers in the DIRECTIONS of a quiz and only 5 out of 120 kids caught it, then good. If not, strike 3. Rebuttal. Aaah ..I love this one...My History teacher used it to convince us to pay attention. She passed out a 2 hundred question surprise test...told us to read the instructions on the 1st page and talk to no one. The instructions said Bla ,bla,bla but go to last page and sigh your name and turn in. Only 3 out of 27 got it...ME  It showed that kids need more training early on and nothing about history or class subject knowledge.I Did Score A's in every History class including HONORS program. Again kids taught early by computer learning ANY SUBJECT will learn if the program is responsive and creative...NOT ALL TEACHERS are this good. NO point. Not all computer programs are that good either. The truth is that if you are teaching a simple subject, computer programs are a useful tool. If the subject is complex and ambiguous, they are far less effective. '4." Benefits have decreased and cost to us have increased. Strike 4 Your sarcastic remark was dimwitted and proves that R's IQ is superior to yours....and he can spell. REBUTTAL.. YOUR BENEFITS HAVE NOT DECREASED..BUT HAVE CONTRACTED GOING FORWARD AS PUBLIC PRESSURE MOUNTS AGAINST TAX INCREASES. My Friends in Calif. are not going away..they and thousands more are locked in with benifits that rival CEO.s They are in their late 50's with life expectancy to be at least 70. They make as much in retirement as they did working...NAME any other job like that...PLEASE..with taxpayers footing the bill. My wife's retirement package is based on years of service and her "grade" as a teacher, which is mostly based on education level (like me, she has both a BS and an MS in her field). My company offers no similar program. However, her retirement pay is a percentage of her final work pay, which wasn't very much to begin with. 200% of not much is still not much. Also, she lacks some investment opportunities that are open to me. My company has a stock purchase program that she can only look upon with envious eyes. In any event, neither one of us can compare to any CEO benefit package that I have ever heard of. I am officially calling you on this point. Please list your teacher friend's cushy package and which CEO retirement package that you are aware of that it rivals. Be specific! Your cost have increased? From what to what...From 0-300 per year.? And you get those tax write offs that no one else gets. Everyone in America has been in the same boat.We cannot have tax increases every year to subsidize Communities and states where teachers hold school districts hostage. There is a point of no return..The car industry found it. Teacher unions stand at the Cliff right now. R can spell....but he has no job....oops! College training running amock..come tape with us. More FAILED EDUCATION PROCESS which is what I am arguing about...his education doesn't match up with any current job necessities. Drywallers need NONE, pay day on Friday...Mud on the wall,not the floor. No point ..and you continue to make mine even clearer. There is no guarantee that a degree will result in a job. Certain degrees are more likely to result in jobs than others. I wouldn't say that having the lack of a job in your degree field means the education process has failed. That's too harsh. My brother in law earned his BS in history. He tried to teach that subject in school for two years before bailing, and now he's a successful manager in a Toyota dealership. Was his degree useless? I think not. Simply having it is proof of his drive and determination, qualities that employers might like in a worker. " 5. I have hung drywall, framed houses, painted houses, and dug ditches (literally). All were a walk in the park compared to what I do. You have not taught in a public classroom." Rebuttal..What does that have to do with anything... I would love to see you hang Drywall on my crew. 40 sheets of 12 fters every day..5/8ths ...If you can do this every day and we have work you can earn nearly $ 65,000 per year, UNION Benefits. Only trouble is we only work 6-9 months a year unless in a BOOM CYCLE which we ain't in...so it's lay offs. No taxpayers support us. Painted houses...? Great... My Union pays over $60,000 for residential painters...must have 3 year training program..must be able to travel 100 miles in any direction...and survive 6 months layoff do to inclement weather. How far to you travel every day...how many days off do you get with NO PAY? Dig Ditches...? Good luck ...Laboreres Union and my buddy carry that. $70,000 in Minnesota with 4 year traing program. We use heavy machinery to break through 4 feet of frozen tundra. Only about 40 % of his local is working now ..with many off for months...Mexicans doing the work for contractors for pennies on the dollar in all CONSTRUCTION JOBS here in MINN. Do you have scabs able to walk in and take your job away? Do You travel hundreds of miles every day in sub zero weather? Do you have long lay offs every year with no pay ...pushing UN employment benefits to the edge? Stay in the class Room...You wouldn't last a week outside. and you lose all debate points... More great educational dollars wasted. I love when other comment on my spelling or grammar..or lackj of it.....You gat my message...you just cant dafend yours.  OK. To sum up, rhino has said that he has hung drywall before. Thus he has experienced both that and being a teacher. You have not. You have not walked in his shoes. You don't see the relevancy of this? By the way, the reason that hanging drywall sucks as a profession is that it doesn't require significant investments in education, which costs time and money. Does that mean it's not hard? Heck no, I'm sure that hanging drywall is quite challenging, not just in the job itself but also in the bigger picture of boom/bust cycles that you refer to. Given the nature of the job, I would imagine that the benefit package (barring union influence) is entirely based on salary. A short term thing, rather than a long term one. Not knowing any of the particulars of that profession, I would guess that entry level drywall workers would enjoy a compensation package similar (perhaps superior) to entry level teachers, but that more experienced workers in that field would find they'd be far less better off than similar teachers would be. I think that's fair. It shows the value of an education. |
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Post by goGopherBill on Jan 6, 2009 14:42:10 GMT -5
He gets it.. We cannot be progressive in thought if all thoughts and views no matter how far out there are never disclosed. Thinking outside the box ..means going outside any comfort zone. For the record... I did my paper work for job tallies at lunch so I wouldn't need to do so at home. I too saw Unions allow quality workers with tenure to be laid off while forcing companies to meet race and sex quotas ( of workers who were not up to quality as those laid off.) Unions were not a problem 30 years ago ..they were the solution..now I wonder if they have become so all powerful as to become the problem? I enjoy my debates here.I do wish others might chip in with meaning full incite from different points of views..from different regions and backgrounds. You wont be given any additional homework... or be tested... OK ... maybe
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Post by goGopherBill on Jan 6, 2009 15:11:24 GMT -5
reply to Aardvark...
You got me...I pictured in my mind a pig like creature with a long snout creeping along the ground.I thought (wrong) they were related.
According to Wikipedia The Aardvark is related to the shrew and elephant..and its nicknames are " earth hog" and or " earth Pig"
Which I can certainly use in jest instead of creeping scale guy.
" OK. To sum up, rhino has said that he has hung drywall before. Thus he has experienced both that and being a teacher. You have not. You have not walked in his shoes. You don't see the relevancy of this?"
Nope..Teaching is teaching period.
I ran crews for 30 years of some the best and worst guys (and gals) you can imagine.
I had murders,rapist and drug users...I had drop outs and teachers with masters degrees.
I had to run a job site which is no different and probably harder than class room where kids are forced to attend.
I had to show and make a profit with whomever the company and UNION sent me.
I built many schools with breakrooms...I know what we built. I have many teacher friends ..I know what they earn and receive in retirement.
I have lived and worked in Calif. and Minn.as well as in Hawaii.
I have relatives in Kentucky ,Penn,Ark. and 6 other states.
Even a distant relative is a US senator.
My Grandfather was one who help Clinton rise to power.
Thinking outside the box is possible ..only if one knows there is a whole world outside their own environment.
That's why someone who is 20 cannot have the same back round knowledge as someone that has been around.
They may be BOOK SMART as OBAMA and his many liberal supporters ,but HISTORY shows that does not ALWAYS trump practical everyday lessons learned from experience.
Schools teach theory and facts as the prevailing government and powers want it to be taught.
If kids are not subjected to conservative values ..how can we expect a diverse and thoughtful society.
We all become sheep with the wool or hair pulled over our long snouts.
insert Aardvark sounds here...ARRK AARK AARK ?
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Post by rhinovb14 on Jan 6, 2009 17:05:28 GMT -5
Bill...your last 2 posts are probably your best thought out and most clearly communicated. I can almost see what your saying.
You may have built some nice break rooms in developing and perhaps affluent school districts, but the clear majority are a joke. Almost nobody uses our lounge except for teacher aides that do nothing but complain about students that they aren't even ultimately responsible for. We instead stay in our rooms grade papers, make phone calls, plan Math lessons(and coaching plans in my case and many others), help students, and maybe visit the bathroom (if I remember to) during my lunch and plan. This is why we bring papers home to grade. 120 tests don't get graded in 40 minutes. Do all teachers? Of course not! It's not hard to spot the bad ones. They show up late, leave early, are unorganized, unplanned, and flustered. They yell at the kids because they have no classroom management and are the first ones to flee to lunch.
We have to teach what the federal government mandates. Believe me I wish it was different. It is what it is. We are called on the carpet every year for our scores on the BS NCLB tests which should be a disgrace to any fairly intelligent educated person. My students say that the feel offended by the math test because of the lack of challenge. I think that speaks volumes.
We try to incorporate creative and interesting lessons, but at the end of the day when the Buffalo News releases it's district rankings (based solely on the NCLB tests) do you think parents give a rats a$$ about what actually happens in the classroom. Hell no! They want Johnny to have nothing lower than a 90 even if he didn't earn it. They want extra credit opportunities when their child didn't do the work in the first place and they want their school to be ranked higher than Sally's school. So we do what we can with the tools we are given. Much like your workers would do if they were given crappy tools and materials. They would try their best, maybe even work twice as hard, but in the end company B that uses top notch equipment and materials with average workers will produce an equivalent and maybe even better product. So we too, like you, are expected to produce quality students regardless of their disability, emotional stability, or IQ.
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Post by rhinovb14 on Jan 6, 2009 17:08:00 GMT -5
By the way, where do you think those murderers, rapists and drug dealers came from? Your fooling yourself if you don't think we work with kids with SERIOUSLY messed up lives. And why would it be harder to teach your workers? My kids are FORCED to come to school which makes them even more hostile and resistant.
By the way, I am leaving school in 30 minutes. That puts my day at 7-5:30. By my calculations that is a 10.5 hour day. I would never leave before 5:30. Many of my co-workers are still here. 186 contracted days (not including the 2 weeks prepping in August) times 10.5 puts me at 1953 hours of work in a year...at a minimum. During Vball season home at 10pm at least 2 days a week (but I won't count that.) The average American worker puts in an 8 hour day right? Let's assume they get NO vacation. So 52 weeks times 40 hours is 2080 hours. Almost no difference and that's without factoring in grading at home and planning lessons/making worksheets.
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Post by aardvark on Jan 6, 2009 19:06:50 GMT -5
He gets it.. We cannot be progressive in thought if all thoughts and views no matter how far out there are never disclosed. Thinking outside the box ..means going outside any comfort zone. For the record... I did my paper work for job tallies at lunch so I wouldn't need to do so at home. I too saw Unions allow quality workers with tenure to be laid off while forcing companies to meet race and sex quotas ( of workers who were not up to quality as those laid off.) Unions were not a problem 30 years ago ..they were the solution..now I wonder if they have become so all powerful as to become the problem? I enjoy my debates here.I do wish others might chip in with meaning full incite from different points of views..from different regions and backgrounds. You wont be given any additional homework... or be tested... OK ... maybe I hate to ruin your day with some facts, but according to my son's American Government textbook, union membership as a percentage of the American workforce hit a high of 25% in the late 1950's, and has declined steadily (nearly every year, in fact) since then to a 13% level in the year 2000. |
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Post by aardvark on Jan 6, 2009 19:33:41 GMT -5
reply to Aardvark... You got me...I pictured in my mind a pig like creature with a long snout creeping along the ground.I thought (wrong) they were related. According to Wikipedia The Aardvark is related to the shrew and elephant..and its nicknames are " earth hog" and or " earth Pig" Which I can certainly use in jest instead of creeping scale guy. It's my understanding that "earth pig" isn't a nickname, but in fact the literal translation of Aardvark, which is Swahili. In any event, my particular handle name derives from the old Pink Panther cartoon, which featured a blue aardvark, vainly trying to eat ants, and consistently thwarted in the process. " OK. To sum up, rhino has said that he has hung drywall before. Thus he has experienced both that and being a teacher. You have not. You have not walked in his shoes. You don't see the relevancy of this?" Nope..Teaching is teaching period. I ran crews for 30 years of some the best and worst guys (and gals) you can imagine. I had murders,rapist and drug users...I had drop outs and teachers with masters degrees. I had to run a job site which is no different and probably harder than class room where kids are forced to attend. I see. Teaching is the same all over. Teaching in an inner city public school is the same as teaching in a rich suburban private school then? Elementary school teaching is just like college? Teaching math is the same as teaching music? I had to show and make a profit with whomever the company and UNION sent me. Given that you've capitalized UNION and haven't done the same for company, it's clear where you lay the lion's share of the blame. Isn't it nice to have a convenient scapegoat, so that you don't have to realistically assess what's really going on around you? Just for the record, unions have a vested interest in getting as many workers belonging to them as possible. It doesn't matter the race, gender, or ethnicity. That's all secondary to sheer numbers. Only in numbers do they have power. I built many schools with breakrooms...I know what we built. Given that your experience is so diametrically opposed to mine, I have to wonder about this. Perhaps Minnesota invests more in their school break rooms than other states do? It's hard to tell, because you aren't backing yourself up with anything other than anecdotal evidence. That makes it hard to address the legitimacy of what you say. I'll leave you with this thought - when people think in terms of "real money", do they think in terms of schools? Or do they think of banks, corporate boardrooms, and Hollywood? I have many teacher friends ..I know what they earn and receive in retirement. I have lived and worked in Calif. and Minn.as well as in Hawaii. I have relatives in Kentucky ,Penn,Ark. and 6 other states. Even a distant relative is a US senator. My Grandfather was one who help Clinton rise to power. Facts please. You outrageously claimed that a teacher's retirement package rivaled that of a CEO. You can either back down from that statement or follow through with proof that it is true. It is so far from from I know as reality, that I can't comprehend that it is even close to the truth. I think your perception is highly warped in this matter. Thinking outside the box is possible ..only if one knows there is a whole world outside their own environment. That's why someone who is 20 cannot have the same back round knowledge as someone that has been around. They may be BOOK SMART as OBAMA and his many liberal supporters ,but HISTORY shows that does not ALWAYS trump practical everyday lessons learned from experience. Schools teach theory and facts as the prevailing government and powers want it to be taught. If kids are not subjected to conservative values ..how can we expect a diverse and thoughtful society. We all become sheep with the wool or hair pulled over our long snouts. insert Aardvark sounds here...ARRK AARK AARK ? OK. If the problem is that conservative values aren't being taught, then why aren't you helping? You don't have to teach to help, but if you want anyone to listen to you, you have to phrase your thoughts in ways that others will accept. But you don't do that. You have a grand ole time alienating everyone around you, so that they come to view your positions as synonymous with being a jerk. The bottom line is that you aren't helping your cause. |
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Post by tigger1 on Jan 6, 2009 21:26:09 GMT -5
It should help to consider the scale of wages in society...
Public School Teacher $50,000.
Wall-Street CEO $50,000,000.
Having cared for both, I'll never be convinced that the latter is 1000 times more valuable to society than the average teacher. Bill, your frustration should be directed against those whose activites are far more wasteful than teaching. The "perp walk" of Bernard Madoff is an outrageous example.
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Post by georgia(pacific)girl on Jan 7, 2009 9:08:26 GMT -5
let's not let Bill in on how much nurses and pharmacists make. I mean how much education does it take to clean a bedpan and count pills?  |
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Post by goGopherBill on Jan 7, 2009 12:21:59 GMT -5
OK my fellow creatures of the planet...
from the lowly Golden gopher comes this reply.
You still don't get it...
It isn't about me or my caveman lack of typing and spelling abilities.
Its about my points I make and your inability to debate them.
Sure, you bring up differences in thought and opinion..but the following facts remain.
DEMOCRATS and their Unions they REPRESENT are bankrupting this society.
PERIOD.
Workers work..but the companies supply the jobs ..not the workers. In the private sector Profit drives buissness..not UNIONS or political cronies.
In Public service ..Government provides the jobs..and there is NO profit..EVER.Only annual cost increases.
I offered up computers,home education ...parents teaching and grading papers allowing teachers to be more on topic...as ways to think outside the box...Progressive ..means solving problems using NEW and different methods.
Not by throwing more gas on a fire to put out a fire.
Hawaii ,Buffalo are mentioned as poor teacher regions and rightfully so.
I mentioned Minnesota ,and my personal knowledge of Calif.Teacher contracts.
Now play along..it isn't about how much you spent in training in college ...SO WHAT ..you were an IDIOT to trust and educational system that thought to give you guaranties of future success by just attending and graduating. Graduating Seniors are finding this out the hard way.
Another educational myth...EXPOSED.
States like New York and Calif. and Mi. are asking for FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS to bail out their CONTRACTS with PUBLIC and PRIVATE UNION CONTRACTS.
THIS IS A INDISPUTABLE FACT.
There fore I can ask ...why should rural POOR COUNTIES such as mine pay for INNER cities that cave to DEMOCRATIC UNION DEMANDS?
My town has a volunteer Fire department...1st responders get $10 for every call.
Teachers make 10% over the county average.
So then you use the OBAMA method of teacher wage VS> CEO to fire up the team.
Again..Be a CEO if its all that easy...Come spend 40 years working to make it to the top..Thousands fail every year.
The Rich vs. poor ...Like every Rich person cheated the common working stiff along the way.
2 Americas.
JOHN EDWARDS..
But there is a greater divide between PRIVATE and public workers DEMOCRATS wont delve into.
Almost all are UNION represented and have save guards and lifestyle promises that the Private sector cannot give.
My wife works for the state..and is UNION ...I worked For the Painters UNION for 35 years...She for 15 years and her benefits surpassed any I ever had.
She never faces layoffs, nor faces job relocation and driving 150 miles per day. She NEVER worked 60 hrs in a week and I bet TEACHERS NEVER DO also.
I saw 4 people DIE during my career ..the last at The Mall of America.
I doubt teachers worry about falling 120 ft during their work day.
I spent over a year at 90 ft. ...50 hr a week Minimum.
It isn't an argument about job training Vs. Pay.
My UNION and MY job and 90% on Main St. wont ask for a government bailout.
Only Democrats and AUTO WORKERS..who they represent..and a failed business model.
Only Democrats and Teacher UNIONS who they represent..and where is our ranking in the world?
Don't Blame BUSH.. It was worst during CARTER and Clinton.
Only Democrats and public employees UNIONS who they represent...fail to mention our education scores and kids are not taught any better during their power times..only the cost sky rockets.
Our fire and police protection remains the same...only the cost increases.
ALL IN MAJOR METROPOLITAN CITIES...
That's our 2 Americas you can't see...those who live in cities ,represented by OBAMA and those who live in the rural areas..represented by Republicans.
Both are entirely funded in a different manner and offer different social services.
Thus we get our discrepancies in our debates.
We get our separation and strong differences.
The Cities cannot fund the social services they promise.
Democrats must tax those they feel need to be taxed more.
and it isn't those who helped elect them.
UNIONS and Government employees.
Paying for play at the highest level...
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Post by goGopherBill on Jan 7, 2009 12:52:07 GMT -5
"I hate to ruin your day with some facts, but according to my son's American Government textbook, union membership as a percentage of the American workforce hit a high of 25% in the late 1950's, and has declined steadily (nearly every year, in fact) since then to a 13% level in the year 2000. "
GREAT ..more educational myths being perpetrated.
So ..Now for the rest of the story.
Unions were at there peak from the 50' when workers really got screwed over...
Thus workers formed UNIONS.
Companies saw the Danger of having a outside entity dictate labor cost to them and responded ..by raising wages and offering retirement and health plans.
Cycles ebbed and flowed through the 90s peaks and valleys but wages and benefits rose rapidly since the early 90's...
Unions were not seen as necessary...amd the private sector expanded and grew.
Fast forward to day.
Where are all the UNION strong holds?
In GOVERNMENT and SERVICES funded by taxpayers.
Police...Firefighters, and yes EDUCATION...
The unions destroyed many other places where they were in place.
Manufacturing..textiles..Carpets...clothing..retail...Steel ..aircraft. TV and Airlines and now car manufacturing. Companies like General Electric...Maytag...
The NE is called the rust belt, Mi is called corrupt and failed.
Calif. and New York are Bankrupt.
Its not because of Corporate greed...or country conservative values.
UNIONS put cost beyond what companies and the public were willing to pay.
As I was typing this I heard that teachers in a district facing lay offs were offered the choice between layoffs and giving up the contract they struck for 2 years ago..
I AGREE TEACHERS alone should not give up wage concessions but administration should also.ACROSS THE BOARD.
FAIRLY.
What would you do ...work for less and save your job...or hope you are not the one who gets the AXE?
Teachers will need to learn this lesson across the country.
The same lesson all workers always have faced from day 1.
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Post by JT on Jan 7, 2009 13:08:09 GMT -5
Its about my points I make and your inability to debate them. Sure, you bring up differences in thought and opinion..but the following facts remain. DEMOCRATS and their Unions they REPRESENT are bankrupting this society. PERIOD. That -- like most of what you posted -- is an opinion, not a fact. True, but irrelevant. If businesses want a profit, they need to have the workers, and they need to pay the workers enough to keep them. So, are you saying that the only measure of value is profit? If the job that's done is required, then it has to get done somehow. Would you really *want* your government to generate a profit off what they provide to you? And people responded with reasons that they believe your proposals will not work. Just because the proposal is new and different does not mean it will work. (As an aside, it's neither new nor different.) True. The value of a job is not based on the cost to qualify for that job. However, in the long run, if the return (salary) on the educational investment people make (cost of schooling) is negative, people won't go into the career. If that career is needed, then the law of supply and demand will increase the salary to the point that it is a worthwhile investment. Or don't you think that INDIVIDUALS are driven by profit, just as companies are? I guess that there's no guarantee of a good return on your investment just because you learned to slap on paint either, just as there's no guarantee of a good return on your investment for going to college. |
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Post by goGopherBill on Jan 7, 2009 15:30:54 GMT -5
Hey Jt and others ...this from the PIONEER PRESS today about Minnesota's Education shortfall.
Ryan Winkler, DFL-Golden Valley, said with student enrollment declining and inflation outpacing funding, it is crucial to help school districts be more cost-effective in their business practices.
"The only way is to figure out a way to deliver a better education more effectively," Winkler said.
Many Minnesota school districts already have partnerships to share services. For instance, the Minnesota School Boards Association has a cooperative that allows districts to buy insurance.
Charlie Kyte, executive director of the Minnesota Association of School Administrators, said if there's a way districts can cooperate to save money, that's a good thing. But to really make a financial impact, he said, districts need to go beyond just teaming up to buy food or fuel.
"If it only stays at the level of buying goods, the savings are going to negligible," Kyte said.
Winkler said this proposal is not a way to help offset the state's anticipated $4.85 billion budget deficit over the next two years because the savings would be at the district level.
"This is truly a way to dedicate more money that we spend on education to the classroom," he said.
Now notice several things...DECLINING ENROLLMENTS
INFLATION OUT PACING FUNDING !!
and the big drum roll...
$4.85 billion budget deficit .
So ..You tell me progressive Wantabees...
WE have less tax income...
We have Less students...
WE Have the lowest INFLATION IN HISTORY.
WHY in THE WORLD IS COST OUT PACING FUNDING?
TEACHER UNIONS ...Districts FORCED TO PAY PERCENTAGE INCREASES YEAR after year despite enrollment and number of students.
AND OBAMA wants another TRILLION $$$ for the same old bailouts of broken programs and UNIONS ?
forced upon those who are staying within their budgets and don't spend more than what they bring in?
Ya. 2 Americas alright.
SANE and in sane.
Blame Bush..Blame Me...Blame everybody but the source.
TRY and debate..
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Post by rhinovb14 on Jan 7, 2009 19:18:36 GMT -5
Look...banner ads to be a math teacher. Sign up Bill. Remember it's easy. Teaching is teaching. Wait until there is a shortage of math teachers because nobody wants to do it because a math major is hard and is a very versatile degree. Corporations snapping up math majors for statistical analysis and systems analysis. It's already happening. Soon teachers will be able to negotiate their salary. Supply and demand.
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