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Post by bunnywailer on Feb 18, 2009 18:38:41 GMT -5
I'm also not defending the Dems. But I sure as hell am not supporting the cowards in the GOP who got their bleeping tax cuts included and still didn't vote for the bill. Obstructionists, pure and simple. And it would appear Pelosi managed to lead the ants to the picnic. You owe her an apology. Too funny. Democrats in control of BOTH HOUSES and the WHITE HOUSE and you STILL want to blame everything on the Republicans? Say all you want about the shortcomings of GWB and Congress from the previous 8 years, but there was still bipartisanship AUTHORSHIP on legislation during those congressional terms. You don't take the most important legislation of this decade, with so much hinging on it, and run back to your own yard to work on it by yourself, then bring it back to the neighborhood and say "YOU MUST VOTE FOR THIS NO QUESTIONS ASKED" and then blame the rest of the neighborhood when they oppose it. Stupid Democrats. And Pelosi didn't lead squat. She couldn't even get the holdouts in her OWN PARTY to vote for it. Luckily for her they have the pure numbers within her own croniship by itself. She's just the monkey on the string dancing around to the organ grinder named Obama.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2009 19:12:02 GMT -5
I'm not blaming the Republicans. I'm saying they are obstructionists. But the bill passed.
You are also totally misrepresenting how this bill was crafted. The GOP wasn't interested in participating -- and, for some reason I still don't get, thought they ought to lead. They chose to stand on the sidelines and boo. That's leadership for you.
How is talking about how high a stack of trillion dollars is, or how many times around the world it wraps, helping anyone?
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Post by JT on Feb 19, 2009 9:37:24 GMT -5
Well, it obviously didn't work, but perhaps at least some of them were trying to get us to not try to borrow our way out of debt-related problems.
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Feb 19, 2009 9:50:01 GMT -5
Well, it obviously didn't work, but perhaps at least some of them were trying to get us to not try to borrow our way out of debt-related problems. That they borrowed us into, of course... That's my issue with the grandstanding. Apparently, _THEIR_ borrowing and spending is ok, but when someone tries to fix the mess? Oh no, take the highground...
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Post by OverAndUnder on Feb 19, 2009 10:18:00 GMT -5
Garbage in, garbage out. The solution to any problem is always determined by how you define the problem. It seems the capitalist evangelists who run the two major parties have successfully defined the problem as "People aren't spending enough money" (The GOP-Shiites mean "Businesses and consumers aren't spending enough money on products", while the DNC-Sunnis mean "Government and producers aren't spending enough money on the factors of production"), therefore the proposed solutions over the last six months have centered around trying to inject large amounts of cash into the system so that people will spend it. Meanwhile there are some people out there - though their voices get drowned out by our Republocratic media culture - who have for several years been saying the problem is that people are spending TOO MUCH on too many irresponsible things, which when done under the multipliers of the global banking network has the cumulative effect of making it appear that there is much more WEALTH in the system than there really is. As with any fantasy scheme, the longer you try to make it last the worse the eventual ADJUSTMENT (crash) will be. So far, all I see is a bunch of people either denying the reality of an adjustment or simply trying to make sure it happens long after they can be blamed for it. When you tell one lie, it leads to another So you tell two lies to cover each other Then you tell three lies and, Oh Brother, You're in trouble up to your ears!
So you tell four lies to try to protect you Then you tell five lies so folks won't suspect you Then you tell six lies and you'll collect A life filled with worries and fears
'Cause you can't remember how many lies you've told And half the things you say aren't true And sometime you'll slip up, you'll trip up and then Whatever will become of you?
So you lie and lie without even trying And each lie you tell will keep multiplying 'Till the whole wide world will know you're lying Then you'll be Suspected Detected Rejected Neglected Disliked And you should! When you lie, you're closing the door On everything good
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2009 11:35:58 GMT -5
Except the banks DO have money and businesses DO have money. They are just scared s***less to lend or spend it. That's not imaginary wealth. Isn't there a difference between reinflating the bubble and jump-starting the stalled economy? It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other does it?
So, are you saying the solution is for us to have an actual depression? IS there a solution?
I don't disagree with you, necessarily. It does seem like there's no point in reinflating the bubble. If there's no wealth there, it's just not there. But that's not all there is to this.
I still respond to JT with: there are certain things we are going to need to spend $$ on now to avoid spending more $$ later. Take Pawlenty's plan to cut medical benefits to state employees. This is short-sighted in the extreme. Take away the healthcare now and you have more expensive problems later.
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Post by goGopherBill on Feb 19, 2009 15:04:25 GMT -5
R..
I think conservatives are saying that there is a NORMAL business cycle of Boom-Bust and that everyone should be educated on that fact.
We cannot have on a Boom cycle that last fore ever,HISTORY ..that thing you ignore shows this as FACT.
How people react to either good or bad as they become complacent in regard to conservative values is highly evident now.
If a Conservative person loses..they say "oh well." better luck next time and I need to re invent myself.
Liberals Blame SOMEONE ELSE or the other party in control and rely on GOVERNMENT to BAIL THEM OUT.
Huge difference.
Conservatives do blame those who NEVER WORK,Never pay taxes or cheat the system for their personal gain.
Liberals just blame success as a cheating system. Anyone who has money MUST HAVE CHEATED. ..while maybe true, they didn't cheat the poor..because the poor had no money ..no values Worth taking in the first place.
The poor living in apartments didn't lose a house. Those without jobs .. didn't lose something they never had.
They (poor) still get their kids educated... receive food stamps and subsidized health care.
OBAMA never said to challenge them for personal responsibility...
He wants that from CEOS,bankers and upper class taxpayers.
Instead of ONLY SPENDING and CUTTING MILITARY spending ..why not look at ENTITLEMENTS?
even Bill Clinton did that.
OBAMA just did away with those changes.
all in a stimulus package that was never vetted.
IF A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT HAD DONE THIS THE WORLD WOULD BE UP IN ARMS AGAINST THE PROCEDURE.
regardless if it was needed or not.
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Post by JT on Feb 19, 2009 15:13:08 GMT -5
I still respond to JT with: there are certain things we are going to need to spend $$ on now to avoid spending more $$ later. Take Pawlenty's plan to cut medical benefits to state employees. Certainly. However, there is -- or at least there should be -- a category difference between items and money that are in the normal budget, and items and money being spent in the "stimulus" bill.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2009 16:34:54 GMT -5
R.. I think conservatives are saying that there is a NORMAL business cycle of Boom-Bust and that everyone should be educated on that fact. We cannot have on a Boom cycle that last fore ever,HISTORY ..that thing you ignore shows this as FACT. Agreed. But what I am saying is that it doesn't HAVE to be the extremes of BOOM! and BUST! that we are seeing. Don't reinflate the balloon, but don't give up all efforts to revive the economy. No, they don't. Are you paying attention? They say that if it's someone ELSE it's happening to. The basic difference is the role they want government to play. Neither wants the government totally out of the game (unless you can still find a real conservative/libertarian somewhere). As for blame, the conservatives find plenty of people to blame and you know it. I bet you get to it later in this post. Bingo! As if this had any significant impact on what has happened. Do you honestly think that people who never work, never pay taxes or cheat the system are defaulting on mortgages? Unless you mean people who don't do REAL work, this just isn't true. Who do I mean by people who don't do real work? People who have gained their wealth by gaming the system. Touche. Except that I'm not saying "anyone". Wow! That's harsh for even you. Yep. It's a cushy life being poor. No doubt about it. Yes, he has. Many, many times. All of the above is not true. Actually, a Republican president could have done it more easily because it would be going against stereotypes. Obama increasing troops in Afghanistan is another example of this. Clinton's welfare reforms is another. Your problem, Bill, is that you bury whatever valid points you make amidst out and out distortions and untruths. It becomes impossible to take you seriously. You can disagree with the stimulus bill, but I just don't get the bile. There is NOTHING for Obama to gain by pushing a bill that he knows will fail. I just cannot believe that he thinks it will fail. I wish I could give the rightwing radio hacks the same benefit. But I know in my gut that they WANT it to fail. For them, this is about power and obstructionism. Very few of them give any indication that their protests are based on principle. It's just so OLD.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Feb 19, 2009 23:37:46 GMT -5
Except the banks DO have money and businesses DO have money. They are just scared s***less to lend or spend it. That's not imaginary wealth. Isn't there a difference between reinflating the bubble and jump-starting the stalled economy? It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other does it? So, are you saying the solution is for us to have an actual depression? IS there a solution? I don't disagree with you, necessarily. It does seem like there's no point in reinflating the bubble. If there's no wealth there, it's just not there. But that's not all there is to this. Depends on what you want and how you define the problem. When late in the season a star athlete (who is an essential part of a team expected to contend for the title) has a nagging knee issue which begins to cause her significant impairment in her daily life functions, how do you deal with it? Depends on what you want and how you define the problem. Is the problem: A) I have a starter who needs to be able to play the remaining six weeks of the year so we can reach the Title? B) I have a college athlete who would like to be able to fulfill four full years of NCAA eligibility at a reasonably high level of performance? C) I have a volleyball player who would like to be able to play the sport she loves throughout her life? D) I have a worn-out person who would just like to be normal? Depending on the goals worked out by the patient and her care providers, they may: A) prescribe physical therapy and cortisone shots. B) opt for immediate surgery followed by intensive rehab and hope for full strength by next season's two-a-days. C) quit the team and after some surgery or rehab, join a less demanding club or co-rec team. D) hang up her ankle supports and take up Wii Tennis. Nobody wants to be the one to tell an ahtlete, "Hey, you've worked so hard, and have had some great experiences. But it's over. Your body can't take any more. You need to take a very long break with tight restrictions to get yourself to a point where you can just live again". You can't always get what you want. But if you try some time, you just might find, it's true -- you really can't get what you want.
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Post by bunnywailer on Feb 20, 2009 0:33:38 GMT -5
Well, it obviously didn't work, but perhaps at least some of them were trying to get us to not try to borrow our way out of debt-related problems. That they borrowed us into, of course... That's my issue with the grandstanding. Apparently, _THEIR_ borrowing and spending is ok, but when someone tries to fix the mess? Oh no, take the highground... Who are you referring to as "they"? Make sure you get the answer right, because I'm loading both barrels.
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Post by OverAndUnder on Feb 20, 2009 8:57:03 GMT -5
That they borrowed us into, of course... That's my issue with the grandstanding. Apparently, _THEIR_ borrowing and spending is ok, but when someone tries to fix the mess? Oh no, take the highground... Who are you referring to as "they"? Make sure you get the answer right, because I'm loading both barrels. I don't know how Pdub and JT will respond, but I don't see this as being a Republican-vs-Democrat thing. The "Contract With America" of 1994 would never have come into being or been at all successful had it not been for the 1992 campaign of Ross Perot, who was the first candidate in the President-as-CEO paradigm that we have now fully transitioned into. Unlike the three presidents we've had since 1992, however, Ross had built and maintained successful businesses.
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Post by JT on Feb 20, 2009 9:56:55 GMT -5
That they borrowed us into, of course... That's my issue with the grandstanding. Apparently, _THEIR_ borrowing and spending is ok, but when someone tries to fix the mess? Oh no, take the highground... Who are you referring to as "they"? I wasn't gonna answer because I thought the Q was for Pdub, but then I noticed that I used the "they" word, too. I was referring to politicians as "they" -- although, sadly, in borrowing and spending, "they" are catering to the wishes of the voters. I would like to think that a majority of voters could recognize the flaw in "sure, we can do that... won't cost you a dime cause govt will do it for you" but maybe (probably) I'm overestimating the average voter. Roll out the barrels! We'll have.... oh... wrong barrel?
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Post by The Bofa on the Sofa on Feb 21, 2009 10:52:35 GMT -5
That they borrowed us into, of course... That's my issue with the grandstanding. Apparently, _THEIR_ borrowing and spending is ok, but when someone tries to fix the mess? Oh no, take the highground... Who are you referring to as "they"? Make sure you get the answer right, because I'm loading both barrels. What? Are you going to deny that the republicans held both houses of congress and the presidency for 6 years? And that the budget and corresponding deficit grew larger in that time than in any time in history? Sorry, the republican-led congress cannot deny their complacity in that. Yes, all politicians spend. However, republicans have made it their specialty to do it based on borrowing. And they don't even deny it - Cheney BOASTS of it, for pete's sake. And you know it's true. You probably have even referred to the "tax and spend" democrats. Indeed, that is the case. But at least they are taxing to get the money to pay for it. Republicans are spending just as much. If they aren't taxing, where are they getting the money to spend? Oh that's right, they BORROW it. All politicians spend money. Lots of money. The only difference is what they want to spend that money on. Spending money on things you like is not wasteful. Spending money on what the other party wants is.
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Post by goGopherBill on Feb 21, 2009 19:14:20 GMT -5
So..spending Money on increasing and modernizing our military ..in our defense is bad...(even though it creates jobs and wealth) Tripling AID spending in Africa is Bad..
Spoken like a true socialist.
Again you blame Republicans in congress..MOST WERE REPLACED 2 years ago. So it's DEMOCRATS in Congress that created this mess.. not REPUBLICANS.
Spending Tax dollars that creates jobs is not bad...
Spending tax dollars to create more dependency on welfare is.
Building schools is not a bad thing ..building more gymnasiums is.
Building more training centers is a good thing..paving more hiking paths is a waste of tax dollars.
Just because the masses want a certain entitlement..DOES not mean they get.
Having the votes to tax those to pay for those entitlements is leading this country to ruin.
Promising the centers of population everything under the sun while screwing rural conservatives will lead to open conflict.
Watch some BECK and FOX.
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