|
|
Post by alantech on Oct 25, 2013 19:51:35 GMT -5
On my VolleyMetrics website, I have examined how serve-receipt statistics from detailed box scores can be used to evaluate liberos (or even non-liberos if one were interested): volleymetrics.blogspot.com/ |
|
|
|
Post by jasonr on Oct 25, 2013 19:54:12 GMT -5
Wong-Orantes?
|
|
|
|
Post by redincolorado on Oct 25, 2013 20:46:42 GMT -5
Interesting thread title. Receipt not receive  Is this some kind of new age bookkeeping requirement |
|
|
|
Post by hebrooks87 on Oct 26, 2013 7:37:00 GMT -5
Instead of taking the mean of the S2R values, it would be better to sum the successful serve receptions, total serve receptions, and total serves to the team and take the S2R of that. For the example of Moster, the large number of serves in the Minnesota match means that, if you take the sum of the values and then calculate S2R, you get 0.269, instead of the mean of the individual matches of 0.289. The difference matters when sample size is different. In the limiting case, consider someone playing against 9 very bad teams, winning every set 25-1. The libero successfully receives the one serve each set for a total of 27 receptions (S=1, R=1). In the 10th match, there are 73 serves and the libero makes errors on all 13 serves she receives (S=0, R=.178). If you calculate S2R for each match and then take the mean, you get a value of 0.9. If you take her overall performance, 27 successes, 13 errors, total of 100 serves against, you get S=.675, R=.4, S2R=0.182. The order of operations for these kind of problems matter.
|
|
|
|
Post by kro2488 on Oct 26, 2013 9:54:22 GMT -5
And my eyes glossed over when i opened a link. There is a reason I hate math.
|
|
|
|
Post by Digittoo on Oct 26, 2013 10:10:23 GMT -5
Including the percentage of teams total serves received may be misleading. There would be a difference created merely from the fact that some liberos are on a team that receives with 3 persons and others on a team that receives with 2.
|
|
|
|
Post by bkedane on Oct 26, 2013 11:02:42 GMT -5
I don't see any way to do a serious evaluation of libero serve reception without including the grading of the individual reception attempts. This effort seems to confirm this. Box scores, even detailed box scores, don't contain enough information. I don't know of any college program that evaluates reception like this or anything like this.
|
|
|
|
Post by alantech on Oct 26, 2013 12:49:40 GMT -5
Good comments, everyone. jasonr: I'll be happy to run the numbers for Nebraska's Justine Wong-Orantes. hebrooks87: I'll test the two calculation routines against each other. My initial reaction, however, is that the two would probably yield similar results outside of extreme situations. Digittoo: For the teams and matches I studied, three players seem to do the bulk of the serve-reception: USC (Hagglund, Shaw, Bricio); Iowa St. 2012 (Hahn, Hockaday, Nolan); Iowa St. 2013 (Hahn, Capezio, Nolan); Michigan St. (Moster, Galloway, Wicinski). bkedane: I agree that micro-grading of passes is the way to go. However, unless one has access to several leading teams' internal data, the best one can do is use public data. When the all-conference and all-America teams are announced at the end of the season, I'll be able to test whether the first-team libero scored higher on my "S2R" measure than the second-team libero, the second-team libero scored higher than the third-teamer, etc. |
|
|
|
Post by volleyfan24 on Oct 26, 2013 15:27:46 GMT -5
I think serve receive is only half of it but percentage level of competition and several other factors come into play. Wong-Ornates is good but to put her in the same sentence as Hagglund and Hahn is reaching. Moster is currently the best libero in her conference I would be much more interested in seeing numbers for Ali Longo or C'era Olivera. I have nothing against Wong-Ornates but the matches I have seen her play she just isn't on the same level yet. Exceptional yes but elite no. She is only a freshmen and has plenty of time to reach that.
|
|
|
|
Post by hammer on Oct 26, 2013 17:02:12 GMT -5
I don't see any way to do a serious evaluation of libero serve reception without including the grading of the individual reception attempts. This effort seems to confirm this. Box scores, even detailed box scores, don't contain enough information. I don't know of any college program that evaluates reception like this or anything like this. YES ... and the grades must be relative. That is, relative to the the quality of the serves and their positions. |
|
|
|
Post by alantech on Nov 1, 2013 10:17:05 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by vbtrainer02 on Nov 1, 2013 11:06:37 GMT -5
Moster is very good but I also think that Dominique Gonzalez, is in my opinion, the best libero in the Big 10! Her defense is hard to judge when her block is whole lot bigger than everyone else's. All around though, Big 10 has a lot of great liberos. Even on teams that are lower in the conference standings.
Moster
Gonzalez
Wong-Orantes
Beltran
Hickey
Cramer
Minnoesota still can't pick a libero. lol Come on Hugh!
|
|
|
|
Post by rainbowbadger on Nov 1, 2013 11:47:14 GMT -5
I would love to see the numbers for Hickey and Morey from Wisconsin. Hickey is currently playing libero and will likely keep the jersey for the rest of the season. Morey was libero for a whole and will likely be next year. My eyes tell me Hickey is stinger, though eyes are often wrong (especially mine).
|
|
|
|
Post by c4ndlelight on Nov 1, 2013 11:49:54 GMT -5
Why are you penalizing liberos the other team tries to avoid?
|
|
|
|
Post by Ye Olde Dawg on Nov 1, 2013 13:13:03 GMT -5
bkedane: I agree that micro-grading of passes is the way to go. However, unless one has access to several leading teams' internal data, the best one can do is use public data. When the all-conference and all-America teams are announced at the end of the season, I'll be able to test whether the first-team libero scored higher on my "S2R" measure than the second-team libero, the second-team libero scored higher than the third-teamer, etc. How about testing the hypothesis on some international matches? FIVB stats do include some grading of passes (%excellent for receptions) and also include the number of attempts and successes. You can check whether the number of receptions is correlated with the averate quality of the passes. Granted, the players involved aren't the NCAA players you're focusing on, but it would give some kind of idea of how S, R, and S2R can correlate with quality of passes in leagues where the stats are available. Offhand, Hagglund seems like a strong candidate for a player whose S2R suffers because of the choices the opposing teams make: her R score is low because whoever else is on the court is a better serving target. |
|
