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Post by just...theDH on Jan 2, 2004 15:52:11 GMT -5
Hey, when is the latest feasible time to let a coach go? For example, I have been hoping UOP chooses not to renew Jayne Gibson-McHugh's contract but the more time that goes by without any announcement the less I think they are going to have the cajones to do it. I know the season just ended but if they wait until the school year ends in May, they will only have a month and a half to find a new coach before fall camp starts.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Huskyfan on Jan 2, 2004 18:07:23 GMT -5
I don't think there is any deadline. Three years ago, Bill Neville (at Washington) "retired" in July. That was less than 2 months before the start of the season.
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Post by believer on Jan 2, 2004 20:39:17 GMT -5
Must disagree with the notion that Jayne has had enough time to proof herself at Pacific. Remember that we are seeing the last of the Dunning dynasty recruits and just recruiting to Pacific in general is harder than to most top 25 volleyball schools. I say they give her a few more years. I do not imagine there is a long list of quality coaches waiting to go to Stockton. Jayne knows the game just needs some better athletes.
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Post by Overlycheerful on Jan 2, 2004 20:45:16 GMT -5
No deadline, but it sure doesn't make sense to keep a coach through Spring practice if they are planning on dumping him/her.
UOP isn't going to let Jayne go...
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Post by Gorf on Jan 2, 2004 22:52:01 GMT -5
You'd think if a school was going to let their coach go they would do it before spring practices start so the new coach(ing staff) could get a much time as possible with the current players as well as get at least some time to put into recruiting before the late signed period rolls around.
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Post by Overlycheerful on Jan 2, 2004 23:00:24 GMT -5
HELLO!
ELLOOOOOOOO
ELLOOOOOOOO
ELLOOOOOOOO
ELLOOOOOOOO
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Post by TheSantaBarbarian on Jan 3, 2004 0:15:48 GMT -5
Must disagree with the notion that Jayne has had enough time to proof herself at Pacific. Remember that we are seeing the last of the Dunning dynasty recruits and just recruiting to Pacific in general is harder than to most top 25 volleyball schools. I say they give her a few more years. I do not imagine there is a long list of quality coaches waiting to go to Stockton. Jayne knows the game just needs some better athletes. Must disagree. It isn't as though she inherited a program that was in the dumps and heeded a rebuild. She inherited a solid top 20 team. Since then the team has gotten worse every year. She has not shown that she can recruit strong name players. only a major mercy call allowed them into the NCAAs this year. Given that the level of the team has gone down every year even though she started with a top 20 calliber team and had Joines, why would you expect different now that the player talent pool is down as is their reputation as a top tier school? I'm not a Jayne hater and in fact have no personal feelings one way or the other. However, I see zero evidence that would make me believe that she could turn around the slide that she created, and the fact that it is her slide, a lot of evidence that she can't.
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Post by Overlycheerful on Jan 3, 2004 3:19:38 GMT -5
To be fair, IIRC, Dunning's departure was pretty sudden--after Shaw's. My guess is that whatever recruits were on the line for that year and the next probably went elsewhere.
All I'm saying is that Dunning did a pretty good job of nuking the program by leaving in the manner he did, both in terms of morale and recruits. Yes, she still had some players (mainly Joines), but UOP's rep took a pretty big hit.
For this, maybe she should get some slack?
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Post by just...theDH on Jan 3, 2004 14:33:15 GMT -5
Actually Perky, you are wrong. When Dunning left, NONE of his recruits decided to go elsewhere. Of the girls that he recruited and only coached one year, Joines, Swails, Mordaunt all stayed. Mary Lauren Smith left Pacific to go back home immediatly after the first semester, before he announced he was leaving. And Jaima Ortega did the same, and has yet to play for any other school until this season maybe.
The fact is Jayne has not only failed to lead a talented-enough team to success, but has failed in recruiting as well. The interesting thing is she was actually in charge of recruiting when Dunning was coach, now that she is head one of her assistants is in charge, so it is bizarre that they haven't had any really solid top recruits since John left.
So I don't know how you can look at that program, which rarely ever dropped out of the Top 15, even Top 10, in 20 years, that has now been unranked for the bulk of the last two seasons, hasn't finished inside the top 3 in a conference they frequently won, barely made the last two NCAA tourneys, and not say it has something to do with the coach.
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Post by just...theDH on Jan 3, 2004 14:36:50 GMT -5
PS Players that Dunning recruited but never coached who still went to Pacific: Hayley Anderson, Joanna Rentz, and Sarah Vinall. They actually didn't have many recruits those two years because after 1999, the team was pretty much all young.
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Post by Overlycheerful on Jan 3, 2004 18:08:08 GMT -5
DH, I'll defer to your take on the recruits. But you will admit that it probably DID have an effect on 2002 recruits (did any Dunning/McHugh kids they were talking to still come?) and 2003?
Also, who have they had since Dunning left who ranks up there with some of his former players? Besides Joines?
I don't know--I'm just asking.
I am not saying she is doing as good a job as Dunning did. Just that she is dealing with something he never had to deal with--namely the sudden departure of the longstanding head coach.
BTW, how many years like 2003 does John get before the Stanford faithful start comparing him, unfavorably, to Shaw? Heck, general consensus in 2002 was that USC's win was an upset.
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Post by Gorf on Jan 3, 2004 18:51:33 GMT -5
I am not saying she is doing as good a job as Dunning did. Just that she is dealing with something he never had to deal with--namely the sudden departure of the longstanding head coach. Actually Dunning took over the Pacific program in 1985 when former longstanding Pacific coach Terry Liskevych left to take over the US National team. Dunning proceded to win back to back national titles at Pacific his first two years with the program and no others while he was at Pacific. I believe Liskevych had won national coach of the year honors at Pacific multiple times (including 1984) before handing the program over to Dunning. Dunning walked into a program that could be argued was in much better shape when he arrived in terms of active players, new recruits and future recruiting than what he left for McHugh.
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Post by Overlycheerful on Jan 3, 2004 20:52:22 GMT -5
And Dunning walked into a pretty decent situation at Stanford, too--and almost won back-to-back titles there.
And, for the record, John had been at Pacific twice as long as Terry had.
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Post by just...theDH on Jan 3, 2004 21:03:09 GMT -5
I think what it all comes down to is actually seeing the team play, which I have seen dozens of times in the last 4 years. Not only that, knowing players who played for both coaches, and players who played for one or the other.
Anybody who has seen the Pacific team play in the last two years more than a few times can tell that the hot streaks they have is their potential, and most of the time they didn't play close to that. Being very experienced in volleyball in both sides, I can pretty much guarantee that had Pacific been coached by a better coach than McHugh they would have done better. As far as talent goes, they may not have been the most talented teams Pacific ever had, but there is plenty there to have done quite a bit better. You watch the team play, they don't look motivated, and don't look like they have that extra desire to win, for themselves or for the coach. Talk to the players, and you'll see they aren't happy. I know they were happy under John.
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Post by cougarize on Jan 4, 2004 22:44:25 GMT -5
I think what it all comes down to is actually seeing the team play, which I have seen dozens of times in the last 4 years. Not only that, knowing players who played for both coaches, and players who played for one or the other. Anybody who has seen the Pacific team play in the last two years more than a few times can tell that the hot streaks they have is their potential, and most of the time they didn't play close to that. Being very experienced in volleyball in both sides, I can pretty much guarantee that had Pacific been coached by a better coach than McHugh they would have done better. As far as talent goes, they may not have been the most talented teams Pacific ever had, but there is plenty there to have done quite a bit better. You watch the team play, they don't look motivated, and don't look like they have that extra desire to win, for themselves or for the coach. Talk to the players, and you'll see they aren't happy. I know they were happy under John. I haven't seen Pacific play, only seen the results and was insulted by their NCAA invite this year. The problem of inadequate coaching and the thinking that teams don't live up to their expectations is true on a good number of top programs in the nation. It takes a special coach to go into a good situation and make it great. In other situations coaches have been in their positions for years and continue to thrive because they are consistent in driving their programs. The two winningest active coaches are who? Andy B. from UCLA and Dave S. from Hawaii. They have had the opportunity to build and continue a tradition. It's much harder in this day and age to get talent to perform with so many distractions. Elaine Michaelis coached at BYU for 40 years, including 28-straight 20-win seasons until her retirement a few years ago. Then Karen Lamb steps in and has the first losing season in school history, although the injuries ravaged the team. That transition is always tough. Everybody want's to win now. Me included. The most important thing is consistency though. Give McHugh a few years and see her recruits come in and see the old recruits graduate. If after that she doesn't do the job, she needs to get the boot. If this was the NFL it would be different. But they also have a salary cap that incubates parity. College volleyball is different and a little patience needs to be practised before rushing to judgment. Now I've rambled long about nothing with an eye on the Sugar Bowl and I need to get back.
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